Infantry Suggestion while shaking my head

Timothy OConnor · Post by **Timothy OConnor** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:52 pm

cama wrote:If I'm not mistaken t80 appear in Chechnya. That's real.

And Canada has Leo 2 in Afghanistan right now. And used 1s shortly before.

And here's the combat history of the BMP-2:

1975-2000 Angolan Civil War
1979-1988 Soviet war in Afghanistan
1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war
1990-1991 Gulf War
1994-1996 First Chechen War
1999- Second Chechen War
2001- United States war in Afghanistan
2003- Invasion of Iraq

zaevor2000 · Post by **zaevor2000** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:02 pm

"I buy into the argument of Arab v Israel, Indo-Pak, Indo-Sino, etc wars. But if we want to stay "historical" then no T80s, no BMP2s, no Leo1s/2s, no Chieftans etc, right? "

T80s used in Chechnya
BMP2s used in Afghanistan (and Chechnya if I'm not mistaken)
Leos used in Afghanistan
Chieftain used by Iran in Iran/Iraq conflict

Lets not forget T72s/T90s in use by Pakistan/India

A lot of the Cold War equipment is used in current conflicts and are therefore relevant to production.

Frank

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:23 am

Panzerleader71 wrote:I am really not sure what the issue is here. GHQ puts out a quality product, and has been around since '67. I think they know what they are doing. As example they are not raising their prices 11% like another miniature company I could name. Their customer service has been top notch when I have dealt with them, and they are very quick to make good on any mucked up orders. If they have come out with a '47 line then there must be a market for it., and if there isn't and dies they will be th firt to say "whoops, looks like we made a mistake here."

I really don't think we have much to worry about.

Perhaps you are new to GHQ...?
Been buying them since about "68/9" myself- they were $1.95 to $2.45 a pack then.
In fact about a year ago GHQ DID raise prices by about, oh...11%
"normal" packs went from $9 to the current $10 and everything else went up in proportion...As you say; their service is exellent, and they offered a hefty discount on orders before the price hike too.
We "weathered" that storm, but if it happens again with gas nearing $5 a gallon...

I am one of those with many questions where the "1947" idea came from- certainly not from this forum.
Despite being a "wehrmacht fanatic", I find it quite bizarre; and of very different nature from the "modern" ranges- in which i've no interest at all, BTW.
Those equipments actually EXISTED in large numbers, fought and are fighting real, if sometimes limited battles, and came all too close to the next (last?) "big one" as well.
As for the idea that "there must be a market"- well, someone at GHQ must THINK there is; or someone for whatever reason must have convinced GHQ that there is.
"a thousand throats may be slit in a single night by a running man"
I guess you could do the same with e-mails too. Vote early, vote often..

Or maybe someone with a lot of influence just thinks it's a "cool idea"...Who knows?

In any case, I wouldn't worry too much about GHQ going out of business from this.
As they recently mentioned, modern naval was a "sales bust" and they survived that well enough. (someone obviously thought there was a good market...)
They will survive this too. Of course, you may be paying $12 or $15 a pack for "legitimate" offerings, but if you want quality "micro"- what choice do you have?
The anglo stuff is crap, and the other US guy releases a new item what, once a decade or so? Such is life, and it is a Roman World...

Timothy OConnor · Post by **Timothy OConnor** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:49 am

I fully agree about GHQ's customer service and quality.

I hope that both GHQ and those customers who apprectiate the Wermacht 47 line don't take out concern as being an "attack" or personal in any way. Such discussions can become heated and even spin out of control as point and counter-point are made (eg combat histories of AFVs).

Those of us who would rather that GHQ spent its resources on other projects and who have expressed concern about the viability of the W47 line would not "waste" their time writing on the forum or via email if they didn't care and truly believe that it might not be a good idea.

Lots of companies in different markets have thought they knew what the market wanted only to be let down. I fear that may happen in this case because, from all evidence to date, GHQ floated the idea of the Wermacht 47 line, some number of people expressed interest and the ratio of people who said good idea was significantly higher than that who said bad idea. That's thin ice in my book but they've been doing this for years so many it carries some might in this market (I'm used to dealing with mutli-million dollar systems rather than consumer products).

After all, Turtledove sells lots of books in the popular sci-fi alternative history category, so some large number of people enjoy the subject. The question to be answered is whether or not miniature gamers enjoy it enough to make GHQ's investment worthwhile.

Suggestion to GHQ: take GMT's approach to publishing. Identify products you think might be worthy as you do now. Ask for some minimum number of pre-orders to initiate production. This reduces risks and confirms whether or not an idea has merit instead of the old fashioned "let's throw something at the wall and see what sticks".

If a significant number of people really want Wermacht 47 figures pre-orders shouldn't be a problem.

Tim

zaevor2000 · Post by **zaevor2000** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:24 am

Outstanding idea on Tim's part and one that shows considerable wisdom...

A certain number of preorders would have a much higher probability of "separating the wheat from the chaff" so to speak w/regards to unconventional line proposals...

This would also recoup part of the losses if a proposed line does indeed flop.

I am with Tim on this. PLEASE, PLEASE do not construe our criticisms in the wrong way. We are just very concerned with the economy being in the shape it is in with risky proposals. As long time customers (I've had my King Tigers and Jagdpanthers since 1978, the first of thousands of GHQ minis), we care very much about GHQ and I believe our passion for GHQ shows through... please think very carefully about following through w/the 1947 line, or at the very list maybe implement a policy of a certain number of pre-orders to test the waters...

Very sage advice on Tim's part. GMT has a good idea that is worth adopting.

Just my two cents.

Frank

Doug B · Post by **Doug B** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:15 am

I am one of those with many questions where the "1947" idea came from- certainly not from this forum.

I have it! There must have been a mutiny among the sculptors when asked to do yet another Sherman variant. The new 47 Wehrmacht line is just a mangement concession to keep them from going to Games Workshop and sculting Orks etc for variety

Post by **GHQ** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:54 am

Apparently the announcement of the Wermacht '47 line has gotten a couple people's panties in a bunch. This is a line that has been in the works for 7-8 years. It is not the whimsical thought that someone at GHQ came up with while having breakfast one day, and then we made the announcement that afternoon. We already have quite a few vehicles and ships that only had a few prototypes, or never even made it off of the drawing boards. We know how well these existing models sell, and they have no other support vehicles or other materials. Although there are some of you who don't know anyone who would ever think of even looking at these models, we have heard from a lot of people over the years who have requested them, and many who have taken the time to contact us and tell us that they are excited about the announcement. There is a story about a prominent liberal who had this to say about Richard Nixon and the 1972 election "How can that be? No one I know voted for Nixon!" Whether or not this is true, you probably get the idea. Often times people get so caught up in their own interests that they can't understand how anyone else could possibly be interested in anything else.

We have tried a lot of things over the years. We came out with modern Micronauts when our WWII Micronauts line was just a fraction of what it is now- it was very incomplete. The modern Micronauts were not a good place to go. We also came out with modern Micro Armour when our WWII line had many gaping holes. That has proven to be a great decision.

The line is far from sci-fi. All of the equipment existed on the drawing boards, and many of the models had prototypes and some limited deployment. When discussing the line at our many meetings over the years the idea of things lke sound cannons and high powered light rays were proposed (yes, these were on the drawing baords and had some prototypes), and Gregg Scott (the founder of GHQ) cringed and said that he didn't want the line to go into that direction. The idea behind this line is that if a couple of things had gone the other way, then the war would have continued on. Maybe that's not for you, but it may be for someone else. Why try to tell someone they really aren't having fun?

For anyone who is looking at the Wermacht '47 line as something that is taking resources away from other things- count the number of releases on our 2008-09 schedule. There are at least as many as previous years, probably more now that we have added 4 to the original list.

None of this is meant to open up a dialogue or debate on this line. It is meant to clear up some misinformation and specualtion that seems to be going on based only on anecdotal evidence. When we initially conceived of this line we knew that it wasn't going to be for everyone. Then again, most of the products that we make don't fit everyone's interests. If you think that the line is interesting, that's great, it will be here this winter. If you don't have any interest in it, then there will be releases in the existing lines for you.

Wermacht '47 is coming this winter.

Thank you for your support,
GHQ

spock1 · Post by **spock1** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:15 am

Hear, Hear! Well done GHQ Staff!

Dog Smack · Post by **Dog Smack** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:31 am

Apparently the announcement of the Wermacht '47 line has gotten a couple people's panties in a bunch.

Got a good laugh out of that! I look forward to the E-10s and E-25s and everything else (Me-262!!)

Steve-o

DrBig · Post by **DrBig** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:50 am

GHQ wrote: The idea behind this line is that if a couple of things had gone the other way, then the war would have continued on.

OK, there it is...the premise. Good to know.

DAK · Post by **DAK** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:27 am

Bring it on GHQ I'm ready to start my collection. Hopefully the 1947 German Infantry and heavy weapons will top that list. Keep up the great work!!

Timothy OConnor · Post by **Timothy OConnor** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:15 am

Maybe that's not for you, but it may be for someone else. Why try to tell someone they really aren't having fun?

Nobody said that those who might like the '47 line are not going to have fun with it. I checked the related threads and that statement is clearly not accurate.

What's the purpose of making such a assertion?

MTB · Post by **MTB** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:47 am

When GHQ posted their "Release List" they stated, "let the debates begin" (or words to that effect). Well, certainly the debate has raged over the planned "1947" scheme. Its nice to see GHQ chime in, however, their recent post does nothing to sway me to purchase any of the "1947" stuff nor to convince me that its a good idea.

I wonder who really has their "panties" in a wad. Let the "debate" continue.

MTB

Rutgervanm · Post by **Rutgervanm** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:16 pm

Thanks GHQ for clearing all this up. You have certainly taken all my worries away!

I'm really glad that the introduction of Wehrmacht '47 will not influence the number of releases for Moderns or WW2. Now I'm really looking forward to seeing the '47 stuff.

If nothing else, it will add a lot more eyecandy to an allready great website.

Timothy OConnor · Post by **Timothy OConnor** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:51 pm

Rutgervanm wrote:
I'm really glad that the introduction of Wehrmacht '47 will not influence the number of releases for Moderns or WW2.

GHQ said the same thing in their message and it makes absolutely no sense. It does in fact influence what else gets produced.

GHQ is investing $ to produce the Wermacht 47 line. They're spending time researching the hardware, paying designers to sculpt the figures, and spending money to build the molds.

Those dollars in labor and material could have been spent on holes in the WWII or Moderns line but will instead be spent on the Wermacht 47 line. And that remains a hard fact even if one asserts that the Wermacht 47 line investment is in addition to their usual annual development budget.

To insist that the Wermacht 47 line does not influence new product releases in other lines is to insist that the Wermacht 47 line costs GHQ absolutely nothing. Now, that's quite possible if GHQ has been commissioned by a third party to build the line and that third party is investing his own funds.

But if GHQ is funding the development then yes, they are making the choice to spend development dollars on the Wermacht 47 line instead of other product lines, even if those dollars are in excess of their usual annual development budget.

In other words, those extra development dollars could have been spent to fill holes in the WWII and Moderns lines, but GHQ chose instead to spend those extra funds to develop the Wermacht 47 line.

Tim