Russian - Georgian Conflict

[chrisswim]

BM-21 in action.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Georgi ... 2C%2BTanks

[jb]

BM-21 in action.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Georgi ... 2C%2BTanks

..I pictured someone getting out their Russian stuff, ever since I saw it on the news last night...
Now how do we model troops with kevlar helmuts and AKs?
Also what is the 8 wheeled artillery piece?

[Dog Smack]

Hey jb

Those are 152mm ShKH Dana vz.77 here's a link: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... e/dana.htm

steve-o

[BattlerBritain]

I saw pictures of x2 tanks burning fiercely. The tanks had ERA blocks on them and from other shots they appeared to be blocking an intersection in a town.

I'm wondering if they were T-72s+ERA or possibly T-55s+ERA.

Picture 13 of 25 at Sky News here:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... 2C%2BTanks

[BattlerBritain]

Over on the Tanknet discussion forums they've been tentatively identified as Georgian T-72s.

Looks like one other lost his turret big time (link fromm someone else's picture):


Also looks like both sides are using T-72s and the only differences between them are the Georgian T-72s don't have searchlights and have a slightly different ERA block layout.

Friendly-fire nightmare or what?

[Timothy OConnor]

Friendly-fire nightmare or what?

I've been thinking the same thing, especially with respect to CAS.

[Timothy OConnor]

Below is from the TankNet forum. Interesting ORBAT information.

Here's a quick & dirty translation of the most realistic ** CENSORED ** of the forces involved I've seen so far:

Georgia:

3 infantry bde
3 separate infantry btn
1 arty bde

total 7,000 soldiers
up to 100 tanks (this seems a bit high)
100 arty pieces
24 MLRS

1-2 Su-25 wings
1-2 helicopter wings

Could be expanded to 20-25 infantry btns, 160-170 tanks, 130-140 arty pieces.


Russia:

2-3 battalion-sized tactical battle groups (the ones Vasily mentioned?) from 19 mech division and 135 separate mech regiment
regimental tactical battle group (same thing? different?) from 76 air mobile division.
units from 45 ORP (what the hell is that?)


total 3,000 soldiers
40 tanks
100 AFVs
60 arty pieces
16 MLRS

Air support from the 25th air army:
1 ground attack regiment
1 bomber regiment (the Tu-22's ?)


Could be expanded to 5-6 of those BTGs (including from the 98 airborne div.), 200 tanks, 160-180 arty, and an air defense regiment.

South Ossetian forces (I assume now must be under russian command):

up to 6 infantry btn
"one and a half" armor companies
2 arty btn
an AA battery

total 3,000 soldiers
15 tanks
50 AFV
36 arty pieces
6 MLRS

Could be expanded to 10-12 infantry btns

[lekw]

So what would you use in 6mm GHQ for Georgian infantry? Modern Russians, British, mix?

[Rutgervanm]

Supposedly, through an American arms program the Georgians have received some western kit, like M4's and M16's and such. However, all the photos of Georgian soldiers I've seen up till now show them with AK47's.

As BattlerBritain said, it's a friendly fire nightmare. (only I wouldn't call it blue on blues, but former reds on former reds )

But seriously, I think this is a terrible conflict. Even though I believe the Russian stated death toll of 2000 civilians is a bit high, too many innocent people have died for what I think is basically a giant Georgian miscalculation.

It might be a bit inconsiderate to start talking about which models to use for recreating this conflict while some of the bodies are probably not even cold. I don't know what would be a more appropriate time for this, but I don't think it's right now.

[lekw]

well I understand what you are saying about a bit early to think of figures to use, don't agree but understand. This is a wargaming model forum after all? If you want to talk about the death toll or how pointless war is or political issues then I am sure there are many forums dealing with those issues.

Many people on this forum game Iraq or other conflicts while they go on (I clearly remember talk of Israel and Hezbalah some time back), and talk about models so I do not see why my question was inapproprite.

[lekw]

Additionally this thread seems to deal with equipment and weapons being used by both sides I would assume to model with GHQ models. So I don’t understand why asking what figures to use for infantry is off limits? What if I would have asked what tanks to use? Again this is a model/wargame forum and to that end asking what to use to model this conflict, which this thread is clearly about, is not inappropriate. If readers think it is in poor taste they can skip the thread or ask its originator not to start it.

[Timothy OConnor]

It might be a bit inconsiderate to start talking about which models to use for recreating this conflict while some of the bodies are probably not even cold. I don't know what would be a more appropriate time for this, but I don't think it's right now.

I have friends and relatives who have fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq.

And I'm happy to report that they're still very warm and very much alive!



Heck, the owner of local game shop (The War Room, which just closed down recently) was deployed to Iraq...while his shop sold all sorts of Modern/Iraq-related items (I even bought a number of his GHQ modern vehicles!). Another friend (and Iraq vet) was actively training REMFs to serve as "combat MPs"...while playing moderns.

But, I can also understand being a bit squeamish about the topic. I must admit that I set my modern games in my fictional campaign setting of Afraqistan. It's a bit like those generic 3rd world countries the military uses for its scenarios. In my case I've developed a complete history and background to give it more color while still not being a specific modern conflict.

[Rutgervanm]

I highly doubt whether you guys would say the same if it had been the day after Operation Gothic Serpent and the pictures in the news would be of molested American bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu (just an example).

Aside from that, I agree with you both that there is no way to objectively determine a period of time after which a conflict could be gamed. Therefore, the day after is as justifiable as a hundred years after. That is my personal point of view.

I just thought some people might find it inappropriate to start asking about modelling advice while the events are still unfolding, which I could well understand. It was for those people that I was trying to be considerate in advance. However, you are right Lekw, if you don't want to read it, then don't.

So, in answer to your question: yes, I would say modern Russian infantry is the best suited. You might want to add a couple of the Brushfire warriors with caps, because they are also armed with AK's. Perhaps some modern US soldiers to recreate Georgian special forces, though I wouldn't have a clue as to which actual units are using them.

French Panhard VBL's could be used to model these lovely armoured cars which the Georgians are using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otokar_Cobra Some combat footage of this vehicle in action can be seen here: http://edition.cnn.com/video/ (scroll down to "Georgian warplane destroyed" and skip forward to 55 seconds).

Georgian tanks might be a bit of a problem, as supposedly they mainly use T72 with reactive armour. However, GHQ doesn't make any Russian tank with ERA except a T80, which is what most Russian units are equipped with I guess. However, the T72 and T80 look pretty alike, especially when covered in the ERA parts, so you might want to try using the GHQ T80 with ERA for the Georgian armoured units.

[lekw]

Thanks for the advice on infantry Rutgervanm. I also like the idea of fictionasl setting any more info on the background? I usually set my modern forces in a fictional Latin American or African setting. Was thinking of a balkan like state as well which may be a better idea. Base the forces on a Georgian/Serb/Croatian mix to get the feel I am looking for without the feeling of being to close to game.

My origianl feeling was I have friends from Georgia (they consider themselves both Russian and Georgian), and would not mind modeling a Georgian army.

[BattlerBritain]

I think the whole thing's a bl**dy nightmare.

But on the subject of tanks I've been trying to identify the various types. It does seem that only T-72s are involved on the MBT front, although these looked to me like T-80s:


However, I'm assured by an expert on Russian tanks that they are T-72Bs.

I thought they were T-80s due to:
a) snorkel on the back of the turret is placed high like on a T-80.
b) smoke dischargers look like those on a T-80
c) the AAMG has a 'see-through' upright protector a-la-T-80.

So if I can't even tell the difference between a T-72B and a T-80, and I pride myself on being able to ID tanks, how the hell can your average Russ/Georgian conscript tell friend from foe when they're both using the same kit?

Nightmare, bl**dy nightmare!