Red Dawn...

[dougeagle]

Who here remembers the movie Red Dawn?
For those of you that are younger...the movie is based on the idea that...umm...nevermind....just watch the movie
Anyways, I saw this movie again a few days ago and in it, Lt Col Tanner mentions a decisive battle that stops the Soviet advance. Some sites suggest it was near the US-Canadian border and got me thinking...'Where is Canada in this time frame?' We hear how most of Europe is not in the fight, but Britain is and won't last much longer...what about Canada. So I set out to come up with the idea of Canada setting up a sort of vanguard force to delay the Soviet advance which would give the US forces enough time to get ready for a massive battle to stop the advance. Thus I came up with a few of scenario ideas.
1- A small Canadian unit sets out to drawn the Soviets attention to them. Soviet General, not thinking the Canadian force is a threat, only sends a regiment of T-62's and BTR's. But a full Canadian brigade is waiting.
2- Soviet General sends more tanks and men...larger force against the Canadian force. How long will the Canucks last???
3- Remnants of the Canadian units gather for another delaying action. This time, T-72 or T-80's could be used. About half way through this battle, US reinforcements...tanks and air power arrive to help out.
4- This is the major part of the battle mentioned in the movie...but with what's left of Canadian units providing some support.

Normally, Canada would be overwhelmed in air power, manpower and artillery...but at the start, the Soviet general is arrogant...which works against him. The US will have the M1 some M2, but I'm thinking that they would be in limited numbers as the movie takes place some where in the early 80's. So the M60 and M113 are the main stay. The final battle will of coarse have M60, M1's facing off against T-72 and T-80's.
Another scenario idea is having the Soviets take over a town and the CAF moves into re-take...now of coarse if this was Edmonton...they can just keep it

If anyone cares to add to this...such as some other ideas that would be great.

[Maple-leaf-Warrior]

How do some of these sound?

> Canada Purchased the Leo1 earlier, like 1965. We then bought Leo2's in 79/80. There would be a squadron or two in canada for training, I would presume. So, thse would be a nasty surprise for the soviets.

>The CAR (and/or the FAST brigade) was not deployed to norway. This powerful light formation could also be brought to bear.

>What is the reserves were mechanized as well? (i.e think of the israeli's) There are 3 Brigades in the west, and if these are mechanized, with M113's and possibly old centurions, they could still be a viable combat force.

Hope these help!

russ

[twopounder]

Well, Red Dawn doesn't take a lot into consideration. How they circumvented our navy, how their air transports slipped into our airspace unmolested, how they were fighting a war on 2 fronts with no allies and still beat us etc.

I would base it more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_in_Conflict instead, which takes place in 1989, so has a good mix of modern and old equipment.

You could break the game down into 3 Theaters:

1: West Coast (Primary invasion, encompassing battles for Washington State, Oregon, and California) Primarily urban and woodland fighting in early spring. Russians would need to take Tacoma/Seattle, Portland, LA/San Diego and surrounding area (including I90, I84, I40, I10, and I8) to secure a pass over the mountains before winter sets in.

Russia begins slipping light artillery into ports on container ships and firing on surrounding bases (such as Ft Lewis/McChord) and soft civilian infrastructure (such as electrical substations) to cause confusion. Bombers and airborne launched before the shelling began will drop soldiers onto civilian airports, allowing the bombers to land. From there, Russian armor (waiting several hundred miles off shore) steams into the ports and unloads. The only immediate US air power is located in smaller air force bases, such as Fairchild.

2: Alaska (Push across the Bearing Straight in a battle that involves USSR vs American/Canadian coalition) Russians move 2 army corps through Alaska to capture the pipeline and cut domestic oil reserves, it is also opening the gateway to invade Canada. Transport ships and long range bombers drop their cargo in Anchorage and Kenai. The terrain is snowy woodland, especially approaching winter.

3: Colorado (American counter attack) The US stages a counter attack from Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico that drives west to the coast. At this point, both countries are fully ramped up with heavy armor, veteran infantry, and air power, making for a brutal fight. Terrain is desert mesa and scrub land.

I'm sure you guys can draw up a list of units suitable for each theater.

Oh, and just because it's killer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOK7r1pa74M

EDIT: Ah, I was going to mention that WiC has a big nod to Red Dawn. During the Soviet Campaign, there is a mission where you meet "unexpected resistance" in a small town. "Wolverines" is written in big letters on the barn, and you keep getting ambushed. I thought it was amusing myself.

[dougeagle]

How do some of these sound?

> Canada Purchased the Leo1 earlier, like 1965. We then bought Leo2's in 79/80. There would be a squadron or two in canada for training, I would presume. So, thse would be a nasty surprise for the soviets.
>The CAR (and/or the FAST brigade) was not deployed to norway. This powerful light formation could also be brought to bear.
>What is the reserves were mechanized as well? (i.e think of the israeli's) There are 3 Brigades in the west, and if these are mechanized, with M113's and possibly old centurions, they could still be a viable combat force.

Hope these help!

russ

Sure do...they sound great. Though I think the idea of the Leo 2 maybe omitted though...but something to think about though

Well, Red Dawn doesn't take a lot into consideration. How they circumvented our navy, how their air transports slipped into our airspace unmolested, how they were fighting a war on 2 fronts with no allies and still beat us etc.

I think this where you have to use your imagination. Perhaps the area was infiltrated or maybe the fleet was at sea and left the borders open...who knows...one can only imagine the reasons on how they invaded the US.

I would base it more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_in_Conflict instead, which takes place in 1989, so has a good mix of modern and old equipment.

Wold in Conflict...haven't played that game in a while. And yes it was a consideration for this idea...but I find that at that time frame and later, western military is more powerful and takes it away from the game. I've been on the receiving end of that in a large battle and was pretty much wiped out...not so fun at all. I want it to be fun and challenging...but not to the point where the players will get discouraged either.

You could break the game down into 3 Theaters:

1: West Coast (Primary invasion, encompassing battles for Washington State, Oregon, and California) Primarily urban and woodland fighting in early spring. Russians would need to take Tacoma/Seattle, Portland, LA/San Diego and surrounding area (including I90, I84, I40, I10, and ICool to secure a pass over the mountains before winter sets in.

Russia begins slipping light artillery into ports on container ships and firing on surrounding bases (such as Ft Lewis/McChord) and soft civilian infrastructure (such as electrical substations) to cause confusion. Bombers and airborne launched before the shelling began will drop soldiers onto civilian airports, allowing the bombers to land. From there, Russian armor (waiting several hundred miles off shore) steams into the ports and unloads. The only immediate US air power is located in smaller air force bases, such as Fairchild.

2: Alaska (Push across the Bearing Straight in a battle that involves USSR vs American/Canadian coalition) Russians move 2 army corps through Alaska to capture the pipeline and cut domestic oil reserves, it is also opening the gateway to invade Canada. Transport ships and long range bombers drop their cargo in Anchorage and Kenai. The terrain is snowy woodland, especially approaching winter.

3: Colorado (American counter attack) The US stages a counter attack from Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico that drives west to the coast. At this point, both countries are fully ramped up with heavy armor, veteran infantry, and air power, making for a brutal fight. Terrain is desert mesa and scrub land.

I'm sure you guys can draw up a list of units suitable for each theater.

Some good ideas...I'll definitely take them into consideration as well

[twopounder]

Actually, on a second watch through:

USSR doesn't invade the US - Mexico does. They are armed by the Russians and given commisars to support the cause.

They infiltrate paratroopers using civilian airliners.

Only England is fighting them in Europe, but the Chinese also joined on our side.

Part of the initial offensive was ICBM strikes against US silos (we got nuked).

So that answers some of the aforementioned questions about the movie.

As for imbalance- I don't believe the 120mm upgrade had been completed on all our tanks, or the depleted uranium shell. T-80's and M1A1's with 105mm guns should have quite the slugging match, though its really US air power that would kill you. Any scenario to balance the game would require an absence of air power or a way for the USSR to reliably bring down A-10's, Super Cobras, and Apaches.

I imagine that playing from 2000 to 2008 would be much more unfair for Russia, as they didn't have the RPG-29 to counter our javelin, insubstantial T-90 upgrade kits, and still no stealth aircraft in production. This is compounded by their mothballed navy.

We had the upper hand in 1989, but not nearly as much as we do now. Plus they had veterans from the Afghan war, where our veterans were mostly retired from Vietnam. Best we had were the few units that saw action in Grenada and Panama.

[dougeagle]

Canada Purchased the Leo1 earlier, like 1965. We then bought Leo2's in 79/80. There would be a squadron or two in canada for training, I would presume. So, thse would be a nasty surprise for the soviets

I was rethinking this idea actually. At this time frame, Trudeau is in power, hopefully he doesn't roll over in his grave, at first, he wishes to sign a deal with Russia for a peaceful resolution...but, as things get worse and NATO pretty much dissolves, Russia begins to extend their influence. Soon, pressure on Trudeau from Parliament he see's this problem and secretly asks Germany for their newer Leo 2's. Germany gladly replies and a squadron is sent first. Few months later another squadron. Within a few weeks afterward, Russia invades North America.

Note- I mentioned that Trudeau would probably roll in his grave at what I had mentioned, but Trudeau, from what I've read that he was a man of reason. So him wanting to sign a sort of non aggression pact could make sense.

Anyways...that could work as well

[Maple-leaf-Warrior]

Very possible! He did befriend Castro, so why not try and make friends with the ruskies?

[dougeagle]

Very possible! He did befriend Castro, so why not try and make friends with the ruskies?

True...and he did go to China before the US did and made ties there as well. I wasn't old enough to know what he was like while PM...but from what I've read...he did some good things too Better scenario than having a coup

[chrisswim]

When did the Canadians procure the Leopard 2? I thought that they only got those within the last few years. The Canadians had uparmoured their Leopard 1s significantly, at least those deployed in the Middle East.

[dougeagle]

When did the Canadians procure the Leopard 2? I thought that they only got those within the last few years. The Canadians had uparmoured their Leopard 1s significantly, at least those deployed in the Middle East.

Yes, we've procured about 100 Leo 2's...I think it was 20 2A6M which are being used in Afghanistan and the rest are 2A4 tanks from the Dutch. This was all in the last 2 years or so. Now there is talk of getting some IFV's to go with the Leo2's...I think its either the Marder or another one...can't remember at the moment.

[TAMMY]

Actually 100 Leo 2 were bought in 2007 from Netherland (80 Leo2A4 and 20 Leo2A6NL). Note that 40 of Leo2A4 to be used for training has to be modified with the 120/55 gun.

The 20 Leo2A6M deployed in Afghanistan are on leasing from the Germn Army. The M means that they are modified with additional armour and mine defence.

Canada bought other 15(?) Leo2A4 from Germany to be cannibalized as spare parts source.

[Maple-leaf-Warrior]

I've been kind of obsessed with the leopard purchase, and I think I have the (as of yet*) make up of the leopard fleet.

20 Leopard 2A6M CAN
20 Leopard 2A4M CAN
42 Leopard 2A4
13 to 18 Pionierpanzer 3 Kodiak
12 Bergepanzer BPz3 Büffel
15 Spare tanks (for parts)

Now, the Leopard 2A4M and 2A6M's will be used for overseas deployment. The 42 Leo2A4's will be used in Canada for training, but can be upgraded to 2A4M CAN status if needed. the 20 Leo2A6M's are the german tanks, but we gave the germans 20 dutch leopards upgraded to 2A6 status. So, while I would like for us to obtain another 40 leopards, this is okay for me. We have more tanks than the aussies!



*With the way the government runs, it could change tomorrow...

[Zippy]

And dont forget we order are Preadators so they will be delivered after we leave Afganistan.

[Luthfats]

I may be only 14 but i for one know that the plot of red dawn is as follows- Russia is at war with Europe and America has sent its main forces to fight the mainstay of the russian offensive while meanwhile an infiltration group of Russian planes nuke most major cities in the United States. The Russians advance form alaska along the pipeline into North America to open the borders so the Cuban and Nicaraguan armies can move in ( so they are in fact not mexicans ). Then the paras are dropped in to secure footholds mostly behind the U.S armies defensive force left from the main army. Then the rest of the movie is about some teens who turn into guirillas to aid america and eventally make it to the F.A ( Free America ) so overall its a good movie, ive watched it 6 times mainly because it has a SHILKA in it

[dougeagle]

I may be only 14 but i for one know that the plot of red dawn is as follows- Russia is at war with Europe and America has sent its main forces to fight the mainstay of the russian offensive while meanwhile an infiltration group of Russian planes nuke most major cities in the United States. The Russians advance form alaska along the pipeline into North America to open the borders so the Cuban and Nicaraguan armies can move in ( so they are in fact not mexicans ). Then the paras are dropped in to secure footholds mostly behind the U.S armies defensive force left from the main army. Then the rest of the movie is about some teens who turn into guirillas to aid america and eventally make it to the F.A ( Free America ) so overall its a good movie, ive watched it 6 times mainly because it has a SHILKA in it

14? I don't even remember when I was 14...
All of Europe isn't in the fight as what did Tanner say...something along the lines of 'twice in 1 century was enough'. So it's mainly US, UK doing the majority of the fighting as the rest of NATO members withdrew from NATO itself.
Lately...I've been playing World in Conflict: Soviet Assault...thanks twopounder