New WWII 1:1 Rules are now available!

rommel58 · Post by **rommel58** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:13 pm

Does anyone think that a reduced price on the 1:1 rules will affect the chance of a summer sale?

dougeagle · Post by **dougeagle** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:55 pm

WargameHub wrote: Wouldn't mind modern, but could you imagine the range on an Abrams?

Or any type of tank like the Challenger, Leo II, T-80 for that matter. With this type of gaming, tanks, ATGM's I think should not have a max range, unless of coarse the board is 15ft long, then perhaps, but for a simple 6x4 battle, nah...only infantry should have a max range.
I would be very interested in a modern 1:1 scale rule set. Been wanting to do a Canadian battle in Afghanistan for some time and I think that is the only way to go

WargameHub · Post by **WargameHub** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:32 pm

I think having a max range is good even if it would not be used in most games. I have access to a 12 ft table.

todd.jayhawk · Post by **todd.jayhawk** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:08 am

Anyone have any info on these? How do they play? I tried looking at the preview pages at Wargame Vault and frankly, that's kind of a joke. They aren't visible. (well this is embarassing - I just saw in my download window that the sample downloaded onto my hard drive. I thought I was to view it on the viewer on Wargame Vaults site.)

I would also like to know the size of the scenarios. How many models?

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:10 pm

I have bought the pdf version and I have yet to test it on a table.

There are ten ready scenarios from 1939 to 1944 not all of the sme size. The maximum number of models is about one hundred (total of both forces for vehicles and infantry stand). The largest tank scenario (Bir el Gobi) has 44 tanks per side.

Besides these ready scenario there is what appear to be a good system to design your own "balanced" scenarios. This gives a poin system and take in account the various tactical situation (hasty attack, reconnaissance in force, etc.) to allow to define the opposing forces with the correct ratio.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:00 pm

i have a few questions on the tank and antitank guns data.

In general their AP/HE ranges are equal and this may be acceptable for game purposes even if the HE range should be higher than AP one.
. What I do not undestand is why the small caliber guns (37, 45, 47mm) have an HE range lower than AP with the exception of United Staes guns.

For example: the Italian 47/32 gun has 40/20 (AP/HE) range while in reality it had a practical AP range of 600-800m (24-32 inches) and a maximum HE range of 4000m (160 inches). This value may be to high for the game but it is evident the the HE range is not lower pf the AP one.

This lower range apply to the British 2-lbr ATG but in this case the point is that this gun had no HE shells. On the tanks the 20 value is possibly due to the MG fire but on the towed gun no.

The British 6-lbr ATg has 60/20 range against a 60/60 of the US 57mm ATG. In this case the British one HAD HE shells while the US one got it nly after the Normandy landings.

A bit of nitpicking. The Itlalian 90 and 102mm "portee" were actually truck-mounted and not portee as they were fixed to the truck bed.

Last point are the horses. In the rules they have "F" movement but I think that it is necessary to be careful in applyng to them the terrain costs of "foot". There are obstacles that the infantry could cross but the cavalry could not. This apply even more to horse drawn guns, wagon or carts.

WargameHub · Post by **WargameHub** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:12 am

We ran them this weekend. Almost identical to the regular rules (a few exceptions). The main difference was there is a lot less maneuver as the ranges do the models justice (far more realistic ranges).
Whatâ€™s nice is you can switch between one stand is a platoon to one stand is a squad or vehicle without learning a different rule set.

WargameHub · Post by **WargameHub** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:15 am

In response to TAMMY

I'm pretty sure most of the time HE was (and is) less. I know from experience the HE round on the 25mm cannon in the Bradley doesn't have the same range or accuracy as the AP.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:42 am

To wargamehub.

I was not involved in accuracy. I was just saying that towed ATG that did not have an HE shell (French 25mm, British 2 punders, etc.) should have an HE value of 0.

The value HE of 20 for the same gun mounted on a tank is due to its MG's, clearly not available to the towed gun.

About the range with HE shells of the ATG guns (towed or on vehicles) of WWII I am quite sure that was generally higher than the AP shots of the same gun simply due to the possibility to fire at a major elevation. Just think to the Shermans used for HE fire support.

In any case, as I said, I consider acceptable the same range AP/HE for game purposes.

The accuracy of the shell is another matter.

WargameHub · Post by **WargameHub** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:55 pm

Good points, and I just thought of the reason for the 20" HE. It's the small arms the gun crews had....

microgeorge · Post by **microgeorge** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:47 am

WargameHub has it right. The HE value for these ATG stands represents the small arms firepower of the crews.
-George Chrestensen : Designer, WWII Microsqyaud

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:53 am

microgeorge wrote:WargameHub has it right. The HE value for these ATG stands represents the small arms firepower of the crews.

Is this true across the board for AT guns?

The Soviets developed and adopted the 45mm M32 AT gun as a result of a deliberate decision that the Rheinmetal 37mm AT gun they were evaluating did not have an adequate HE round for their purposes. Seems odd, if they chose to develop a gun for its HE performance, that we would restrict it to crew small-arms fire.

So also the Bohler 47mm AT gun (license built by Breda as the Italian M35) was retained in service by the Romanians until the end of the war, even though it's AT performance was all but useless against Soviet (and later German) tanks, primarily because it made a useful light-weight Infantry Gun. Not sure how such a gun would be be of any worthwhile support to infantry formations if it was restricted to the crew's small arms.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:13 pm

Of the small calibre (up to 57mm) ATG guns only the US guns have an HE range (32 for 37mm and 60 for 57mm) while those of other natioms have all "20".

This is OK for those guns without an HE shell like the French 25mm and the British 2 pdr but is not correct for all other guns. The French and German 37mm ATG guns, as well as Italian 47mm or Russian 45mm had HE shell.

Just to point out one inconsistency: the French FT17 with 37mm had only the gun without MG, notwithstanding that it gets a 20 range for HE fire. Yet Its gun was born as an infantry support weapon with HE shells only.

In my opinion all the ATG guns (on field mounting or vtanks) with HE shells should be treated in the same way of the US 37mm, that is with equal range for AP and HE.