Flak36 vs PAK43--What gives?

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Mk 1
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Post by Mk 1 »

TAMMY wrote:The Flak 36. First of all the elevaton and transverse wheels where on the same side (the right) with the elevation behind the transverse. In direct fire the control where like those of any ATG. It was used a direct telescopic sight (Zielfernrohr 20 or 20E) mounted above the transverse wheel. This sight had a drum for distance setting that was connected with a pointer for elevation. The pointer set the drum with the left hand (and the elevation operator matched the pointer). Withe with the right hand he turned the transverse wheel to follow the target. Quite straightforward actually.
TAMMY:

I have been searching for my sources since reading your reply. Unhappily I moved this past summer, and most searches wind up with the same conclusion ... "it's in a box in the garage". (There are dozens of boxes in the garage, stacked floor-to-ceiling! :cry: )

Could I ask your source? I don't think I recall having anything with that level of detail.

I do recall the story that Rommel had some of his 88s modified so that the gunner could operate both traverse and elevation. It was said this ruined the guns for AA work. It may be that I have incorrectly concluded that this meant the two controlls were on opposite sides, rather than being two men's positions on the same side. Or it may be a matter of the difference between the FLAK 18 vs. the FLAK 36. I do recall that there was a modernization of the FLAK 18 which provided both controls to one gunner ... I think it was the Model 1938. Whether this same appeared on the FLAK 36 I do not know.

On reviewing my pictures, the one 88 I have inspected does appear to have the elevation wheel on the right, where the traverse gunner sat. The elevation wheel is rather far forward, as seen here:

Image
You can just see the wheel in front of the pedestal, on the opposite side from the camera. I wish I had bothered to take more detailed walk-around pictures, or had this question in mind, on any of the several times I've seen this gun over the past 10 years. :roll:

That said, I would still not dismiss the dis-advantage of having a seperate crewman operating elevation in an AT engagement. It may be true that there was a repeater for the principal gunner to communicate range to the crewman working the elevation. But even in the flattest of arenas (like the western Dessert) there are still likely to be rises and folds in the ground over the 2+ thousand meters of range of the 88, and a gunner needs to adjust his elevation not only for the range but for the movement of his target over that ground. So after setting his range, our gunner must still call out to another crewman when he wants the gun elevated or depressed as he tracks his target.

All in all a less the fully efficient approach.
-Mark 1
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"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD

TAMMY
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Post by TAMMY »

Mk I
I may agree with you that the Flak 36 was not the best solution for an ATG but it was the use of an existing weapon with separate training wheels..

The wheel you can see on the other side of the gun in the photo is the transverse and not the elevation one which is hidden behind the pedestal of the gun.

My detailed information on the sight comes from TM-E9-369A of the War Department that is the technical manual for German 88mm Antiaircraft gun materiel.

BTW the sighting had an angle of site mechanism graduated from plus to minus 200 mils to correct for the difference between gun and target. This was mechanically transmitted to the elevation man like the range data.

You can tell if the gun is set for AT fire by the position of the two men at the wheels. The forward one is looking forward throu the sights while the other is looking at the gun in front of himself. If it is set for AA fire both men are looking at the gun, moreover the "follow the pointer" system is installed.

For a visual help in understanding the firing method and details I suggest the following sites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVPLdRReUZ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70lTwBqX ... re=related

http://www.primeportal.net/artillery/gu ... php?Page=3
Ubicumque et semper

TAMMY
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Post by TAMMY »

Mk 1
I would like to add a couple of details to may answer.

Rommel. I have found no trace of spcial modification to the 88mm gun. The critics in North Afrika where for a question of role. Simply said: if you deploy ypur AA heavy guns in the front line as ATG what happens to your AA defence? Keep in mind that Rommel was using Luftwaffe guns as there were no heavy Flak army unmits in North Affrika, and the duty of the Luftwaffe was the AA defence not to fight against tank.

The operation of the elevation wheel was quite minimal. One turn of the handwheel at low gear gave 1 deg elevation (2 deg at high gear) and the elevation required for ATG fire were:
1000m 6/16 deg (The elevation quadrant was graduated in 1/16 degrees)
2000m 1 degree
3000m 1 deg 5/16
4000m 2 deg 6/16

As a general data the time to elevate from -3 to 85 degrees at low gear (that is 88 turns of the handwheel) is given as 25.90 sec., the reverse as 34.90 sec
Ubicumque et semper

TAMMY
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Post by TAMMY »

Mk I
Your comment on modified 88mm for one layer control pushed me to make a bit of research and I found the following on a Panzertracts book by T. Jentz.
In 1939-first months of 1940 a total of 43 Flak 18 were modified for control by one man as heavy anti-tank gun to be used mainly against the heavily armoured French B1 tanks.
The modification connected the elevation with a chain to the transverse control and limited the elevation to 15 degrees. 10 of these modified guns were mounted on armoured SdKfz 8 as self-propelled weapons while the other were organized in three schwere panzerjaeger abteilungen (525, 560 and 605 each with 3 batteries of 4x88 and 4x37mm ATG). A way to identify these modified guns is that they were usually towed by SdKfz8 with an armoured body.
The selfpropelled guns were organized into the 1st (independent) company of schwere panzerjaeger abteilung 8. The company was used in Poland then, reduce to 6 vehicles, to the campaign of France attached to the 2nd Panzer Division. In 1941 it was a reserve of vqrious Corps of the Army Group Center. In January 1942 it changed name and became the Panzer.Kompanie 601 then to become the 3/521 (reduced to 4x88) and then destroyed at Stalingrad.
The towed units lasted less.
525th. It was created in Noivember 1939 and did not took part in the campaign for France. In 1941 it was attached to various units of Army Group South. At the start of 1942 it was re-equipped with Marder II vehicles.
560th. Took part to the campaign for France as reserve of Army Group B. In the Russian Campaign it was attached to the Army Group South. In 1942 it was re-equipped with 7,5cn Pak 40.
605th. It took part to the campaign for France as a reserve of IV Corps. In October 1940 was re-equipped with 4,7cm SP guns.
Ubicumque et semper

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