ACR thread, as suggested by Redleg

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:33 am

Redleg,

The C&C and EW Blackhawks were part of HHT. Each ground squadron theoretically had one C&C Hawk at their disposal, although the RCO got one whenever he or the Regimental staff needed a ride. He could also take the OH when necessary, although while stealthier, the comms were not as robust. The ground squadron COs ordinarily preferred tanks or M3s with either the S3 or S3 Air in the C&C bird acting as a jump toc.

redleg · Post by **redleg** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:30 pm

Thanks for the detail, Cav Dog! I guess I need to get some Blackhawks sooner rather than later!

Mike Robel, so did you move the dismounted scouts by helicopter then? You didn't have any dedicated scout or infantry platoons right?

mike robel · Post by **mike robel** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:16 am

Correct. No dismounted elements at all. I did two airmobile operations as a cavalry platoon leader, both patrols along the border. Everyone went. Scouts, tankers, mortarmen.

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:51 am

Redleg,

I am using Tom Clancy's armored cav book as a reference. In there, I think it says that each Bradley has only two dismounts per track. Is that correct?

redleg · Post by **redleg** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:09 am

Hoth, everything that I've seen says 2 dismounts per Bradley in the scout platoons. 6 Brads per platoon. Each track has a 3-man crew, plus 2 dismounts, for a total of 30 dudes per platoon. If you are are a staff nerd note that the Bradley dismounts are scouts (MOS 19D) as opposed to an infantryman (MOS 11B).

I'm a nerd so I care about those things!

mike robel · Post by **mike robel** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:16 am

I believe that to be correct. The CFV carriers more ammunition than the IFV, therefore has a little less room for crew, but two people probably have ample room for the kit.

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:18 am

Thanks Mike robel. It makes infantry stands easier to make.

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:40 am

Hoth,

While a fine writer Mr Clancy does have a couple of glaring errors in Armored Cav.

- he lists the Air Cav troops as Mike. November and Papa. In 3rd ACR, and the rest of the ACRs for that matter, Mike was a tank company in 3rd Squadron. His lettering is off because he assumes Juliet is a ground Cav troop but in actuality, there was no J troop.

There are many tales as to why that is starting with that J Troop was Custer's troop at Little Big Horn and the Cavalry units retired that guidon, to I and J appear too similar on guidons from a distance so the staff gets confused as to who is who and finally, my personal favorite, no self respecting Cav trooper wants to be in a troop with a girl's name... Of course now there are females troopers in the Cav but still no Juliet Troop.

- the other error is that he states 3ACR had an Apache and OH 58D squadron attached for the Gulf War. Not so, there were Apaches in XVIII Airborne Corps Attack Battalions, as well as Apache Battalions in the 101st, 82nd and 24th Mech but the closest we ever got to an Apache was when a 24th mech bird landed at our FAARP full of holes, out of gas and the CPG needing a couple of band-aids to plug some leaks. We did have a section of OH 58Ds attached but they came from the Oklahoma National Guard Artillery Brigade that was attached to us for a while.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:14 am

I would go with the one about the similarity between I and J. The phonetic alphabet was introduced in 1941 and the J was indicated by the word "jig." The J was changed to Juliette when the NATO standard was established. There was no J troop/company in 7th Cavalry or any other US regiment much earlier than 1941. And Clancy should have know better. Military documents were hand written and it could be very difficult to distinguish between the hand written I and J.

If you ever watch those old WWII black and white movies, you hear Able and Baker used for A and B rather than Alpha and Bravo. The earlier version is quite different.

redleg · Post by **redleg** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:53 am

In my ACR I am skipping both J and Q. I had always heard about the issue of confusing a hand written I and J so I just went with that. I also thought Q was a goofy letter and hard to find a troop name that started with Q!

redleg · Post by **redleg** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:04 am

Hoth, I dusted off my Clancy book and glanced through it. I noticed 2 things about the ACR organization that seem odd.

First, he shows 8-gun howitzer batteries which used to be the case, but they switched to 6-gun batteries in the late 90s I think. It all depends on what time-frame you are modelling with your unit so I guess 8 guns isn't necessarily odd, just something to think about.

The second thing is the aviation squadron. He shows an air cav troop as having 6 Kiowas and 4 Apaches, and the attack troops as having 4 Kiowas and 7 Apaches. But in FM 1-114 (Air Cavalry Squadron) dated 2000 it shows air cav troops as having 8 Kiowas each and attack troops as having 8 Apaches each. I assume that there was a change at some point there too.

Cav Dog, were your air troops mixed Kiowa / Apache in Desert Storm? Do you know when / if they changed?

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:10 am

The naming of troops, companies, etc, is a convention which has not been of concern until relatively recently. And with a little imagination, I am certain you could come up with an absolutely dashing name beginning with Q.

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 pm

I always thought Quicksilver was a goofy call sign for Q Troop but honestly couldn't come up with anything better in keeping with the old west motif popular among Cav units. We had many unofficial and un-PC names for them which doesn't take much imagination to guess.

The Air Cav troops had 6x4 OH 58s and AH 1 Cobras while the Attack Troops had 4x7 Oh 58s and AH 1 Cobras in the Gulf War.

In the mid 90s when peace was breaking out and many units were shuttered and bases consolidated 3ACR moved from Ft Bliss to Ft Carson and went to the mix Clancy describes. Not long after that, the Air Cav troops went to 8 Kiowa Warriors and the Attack Troops went to 7 Apaches.

And the rest as they say is history...

redleg · Post by **redleg** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:55 pm

Thanks for the info Cav Dog! I was at Carson from 1999 to 2001 and I recall there being some issues with the kiowa at that altitude but I was in 4ID so I may be mistaken. I couldn't think of a good Q name either and by skipping it I can make the Blackhawks Tomahawk Troop!

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:10 pm

Tomahawk was the call sign for the Aviation Maintanence Troop.