Surrogates

[Roger H]

After collecting microarmor for the last 30 years, I’ve managed to build a Cold War force of 10 platoon scale armored /Mech divisions, as well as supporting units . I’ve built my collection with about 80% GHQ and rounding out with other brands . The “other brands “ are limited and today mostly unavailable (like the British Ros or CinC lines) .
So…….over the years, I’ve had to adapt using the best available line (GHQ) to fill out those models that stand alone are not available on the market . Sometimes you have to kitbash. Sometimes you substitute. But here’s some things I’ve did over the years to give me what I needed while waiting on the new release schedules with crossed fingers .

1) Towed Minelayers - Similar to what the British used, towed behind the FV432 APC over there with BAOR …
The gun carriage for the 75mm Pack Howitzer without the gun piece glued to the rear of the APC looks pretty good as the standard British towed minelayer . Also, the small mine plough/rake from the Striker engineer vehicle mounted to the FV432 works pretty well too.( if you are willing to make that investment ) .
2) Sultan/Samaritan Armored vehicles. - The Starstreak vehicle gives us a good facsimile of these two vehicles that have been missing from GHQ’s inventory . Just save the Missile launcher pods for something else and you got command /ambulance tracks for your armoured/ recon regiments in your British/Belgian armies.
3) The M2 Ferry . I know…….getting very knitpicky here. But why not show the 28th Engineer Amphibious Regiment on your BAOR list . No one here or overseas makes an M2 ferry so I took the Soviet SS21 launcher, stashed the missile in the spares box, clipped and sanded smooth the middle wheels and …….viola!…….a pretty good copy of the M2 bridge ferry vehicle
4) The Chieftain AVLB ……..Pretty much took the Chieftain hull and attached the M104 launcher and bridge on top of the deck . Not perfect …..but it works . Did the same using the M-104 on the Gepard hull to make the BIber for the Bundeswehr, Canadian and Dutch engineer companies .
5) Lynx/M-113 C&R - Nothing out there available . The M-114 C&R model that GHQ offers, finally has a use . It’s really the worst model GHQ offers and is not really a good Lynx facsimile, but it’s a comparable size to the Lynx .
6) AMX 30 ARV/EBG - For size and superstructure similarity, the Leopard 1 ARV seems to be the best surrogate for these vehicles.
7) I’m very excited with the new South Korean MLRS model just released . Not because I like South Korean rocket launchers, but finally GHQ gave me a M800 series chassis and cab for kitbashing . The cab fits perfectly on the M900 series chassis for the wrecker and (with some work ) on the 5 ton cargo truck . The possibilities here for kitbashes for bridge vehicles, expando vans, dump trucks etc have greatly increased . Work in progress here!!!!!
Dozers- Take the Stalinetz tractor and add the blade from the DEUCE and you got a pretty decent D-6 dozer.
9) Lowboys- To haul that new kit bashed D-6 , I created a M915 tractor by using the Oshkosh Marine Mk 1 Logistics vehicle without the body/bed and installed the winch assembly from the DragonWagon behind the cab . I the
used the lowboy trailer from the dragon wagon to complete the assembly .
Just some ideas …… It worked with me .

[Brigade Commander]

After collecting microarmor for the last 30 years, I’ve managed to build a Cold War force of 10 platoon scale armored /Mech divisions, as well as supporting units . I’ve built my collection with about 80% GHQ and rounding out with other brands . The “other brands “ are limited and today mostly unavailable (like the British Ros or CinC lines) .
So…….over the years, I’ve had to adapt using the best available line (GHQ) to fill out those models that stand alone are not available on the market . Sometimes you have to kitbash. Sometimes you substitute. But here’s some things I’ve did over the years to give me what I needed while waiting on the new release schedules with crossed fingers .


9) Lowboys- To haul that new kit bashed D-6 , I created a M915 tractor by using the Oshkosh Marine Mk 1 Logistics vehicle without the body/bed and installed the winch assembly from the DragonWagon behind the cab . I the
used the lowboy trailer from the dragon wagon to complete the assembly .
Just some ideas …… It worked with me .

To save you from kit-bashing these can be requisitioned on Shapeways from Masters of Military. I use:

23rd ENG(Cbt): M-920 / M870 is the ride of choice for my M-105's.
54th FSB: M-911 / M-747 is the heavy equipment recovery set used. This was what was used right up to, and during, Gulf War I. They struggled with the ever increasing weight of the M-1's and finally a proper combination came out in the M-1070 / M-1000. They started replacing the earlier equipment during the war.

They have four or five versions of the lowboys over the years. They also have a number of other tractor-trailers including an M-915 / M-969A1 Fuel tractor-trailer. This is the version that can do both bulk drops and retail delivery on its own. They also have the breakbulk trailers and the flatbed version originally spec'd for ammunition hauling but later used for moving 40' containers.

[redleg]

Those are some great ideas Roger! I’m following Brigade Commander’s lead with ordering from Shapeways on some stuff, but those are some really cool conversions. I haven’t really done too much in the way of conversions or kit bashing – just a couple Q36 radars that are generator trailers with styrene glued on for the antenna and to build the rear of the trailer up.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but tell us about your 10 divisions! What units do they represent? Are they all cold war divisions?

[panzergator]

Shapeways CAN be TOO pricey for some items. I'm all for kitbashing. In some cases, 3d printing may come to the rescue. My current kitbash is using the M113C&R for an chassis and either the LAV25 turret or the CinC M2 turret to make M800(T) ARSV until I get the stl file commissioned.

[Roger H]

Redleg! My Main Man! What’s Shakin!

My pride and joy of my collection are the two Mech divisions and the one armored division of V Corps . For that I created two identical Div 86 Mech divisions for 8th ID and 4th ID with M60A3s and M113/M901 ITVs . My support vehicles include the HEMMETTs, 5 Tons , Deuce and Half’s and the Gamma Goats and Jeeps . Even have a few of of the CUCV s from Shapeways . My aviation brigades have Cobras, Kiowas, Blackhawks and Hueys. Pretty much reflects the 86-87 time period . The 3rd AD is juiced up with the full compliment of M-1 (105mm) tanks and Bradley A0 s. It’s got it’s full compliment of HUMMVEEs instead of the Goats and Jeeps . I also did the 11ACR and Corps artillery to go along with it .
The next project completed is I British Corps with all three British Armoured Divisions representing the same period . It’s a mix of Chieftains and Chally 1s along with the Warriors and FV 432s . Also did the 19th Brigade with the Saxons and the supporting aviation regiments . For the artillery brigade , I had to use the other guys M-107s and Abbott’s .
I’ve done a Bundeswehr Panzer Division equipped with Leo 2s and Marders . My future project for the Germans is to do an attack helicopter regiment with BO-105s supported with UH-1s and a kitbashed squadron of CH-53Gs from the PAVE LOW kits .
I’m currently finalizing a French Armoured Division with the AMX 30 tanks, AMX 10P IFVs, GCTs etc.
Finally, I created four NATO brigades from Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and the Canadians using mostly GHQ .
I also had enough German Fuchs and French wheeled APCs to build the Franco German Brigade .
The organizations are platoon scale utilizing Isby and Kamps ARMIES OF NATOs CENTRAL FRONT and the Desert Storm edition of COMMAND POST QUARTERLY to build my units .
Combine em all up and you have about three Corps total .

[chrisswim]

M113 C&R, this was when I was usurping black thread painted black for antennas.

[redleg]

Holy Smokes Roger! That's an incredible collection! Do you play corps-level games with multiple divisions on the table (or maybe on the gym floor)? When was the last time you inventoried your armies? Even at platoon scale that's got to be a huge collection!

[panzergator]

Good GOD, Roger! Do you rent a high school gym for a motor pool? Please clarify... Is this 1 - 1 vehicle or 1 vehicle = 1 platoon? Either way, it's quite a project. Why the whole 4th ID, though? There was a forward brigade in Kaiserslautern, but most of the 4th remained at Carson. (Just curious. I do what I want with my stuff and it isn't always real-world.) You win a lottery or use the kids' college money? (I use a collection of Ft Knox and Ft. Benning student texts for my 3AD plus.)

I am not nearly as ambitious as you have been. You may be, along with Chris for numbers and Brigadecommander for EVERY...SINGLE... DAMNED... VEHICLE in a TOE brigade, the envy of the forum!

[Roger H]

Dude, I hate to say it, but I’ve never gamed any of my stuff . I guess I am a bit of hoarder. I get the thrill of collecting and building force structures . I am about two divisions behind on the painting and finishing, but I am diligently trying to catch up . Maybe one day , I will have my legions deployed , spread out and ready to cross the line of departure
As for now, they sit in those clear plastic Reforger boxes in my man cave with the occasional local maneuver on the dining room table ….
It’s a hefty collection . I spent a fortune over a thirty year period, but thank God I accumulated them when GHQ packs went for about 6 bucks a pop and worked up .
I luckily don’t drink . I don’t smoke. I don’t play poker. I have enough shotguns, pistols, rifles and ammo to keep the gun safe full . I hate cruises. I hate ** CENSORED ** and gambling and there’s very few other vices out there I partake in so it’s little teeny weeny tanks that give me a thrill . I don’t get calls at three in the morning on Saturday nights from the Staff Duty Officer to get my troops out of jail . I lose a piece, there’s no hassle with the CID or the battalion Property Book Officer. I just order a new pack or piece. Everything is operable, so no “conferences “ with the Battalion Motor Officer or the S-4 to get out the motor pool and on the tank trail .
My scale is 1 vehicle- 1 platoon and that is enough. I don’t even bother trying to do stuff like forward support/main support battalions, MI, Signal or other CS CSS units . That would be too too much!

[Roger H]

BTW Gator,
4th ID was the reinforcement division from CONUS that brought V Corps up to strength just as the Big Red One reinforced VII Corps . I think the Dollar 94 at Knox and the Dollar 97 at Benning were tabbed to reinforce V Corps also , but I think there was a redirect for them and they were tabbed to the XVIII Airborne Corps later .
That 4th Brigade 4ID at Kaiserslautern was a rotational force that had battalions from the 1st Cav and Big Red One along with the the 4th sent on 6 month tours . It probably would have not rejoined its parent division had the balloon went up and according to some of the articles and reports I read of it , it would have been used to supplement and even absorbed by the 8th ID . It was never set up like the 3/1ID or 3/2AD .

[panzergator]

More importantly, you don't have to brief the division commander, MG Simmons, at the monthly 2715 briefing, known in 3AD ts the " monthly bloodletting...!

I was in Friedberg, with 3BDE, 3AD (Jul,'75-Jul,'78) at the time 4ID's brigade arrived in K-town. One of my college roommates was assigned to it. Spent time there as an M60A2 platoon leader, XO of the brigade HHC, and then almost 2 years as one of those BMOs you disparaged. That was when I started losing my hair. At least that was with the A1 battalion. Time in 8ID and 5th ID, as well.

Had college buddies down at Graf with Brigade '75, too.

I am like-minded. I collect, but do not wargame. I ENJOYED the REAL operations aspects of the Army, but do not care for the procedure of the games rules. Too plodding. I paint, line up in boxes, and collect some more and paint some more. With 3D printing, I will be able to add the serice support vehicles to all my battalions - I like one for one - but will limit the division I have to the tank, mech, arty, ADA,Eng, and Signal. Maybe the Aviation. No trans, supply, etc. The division is G through interim J. I have a J series brigade with M1A1s and M2s, Cav, Arty, and engineers, but I bill it as a separate armored bde, not an ABCT, and an armor group of odd battalions - M60A1s,A2s, and A3s. Need mech for it. And the latest - 3 battalions of MBT70s. There is one squadron of USAREUR-mod ACR, the 6-Sheridan per platoon type for 2/11th ACR) I have sufficient Sheridans for the standard (3-Sherdan per platoon) for 3rd ACR. regiment, but am waiting on sufficient M114s to complete it. My aviation element has a battalion of AH56 and a battalion of AH60s, both models never in service. AH1s, Kiowas, Apaches, and CH47s in the pipeline. I will commission stl files to print XM723s, ARSV(T), and the GM XM1 model.

I go earlier a bit, too. 2 M59 mech bns supported by an M48A1 bn and Arty. E series TOE. The M59s are 1/300, but I have an stl file for 1/285 to print. Working on the M48A1s, which GHQ dioes not make, and the sole Army M103 bn, with A2 subbing for now. IF I live long enough, I will model each tank battalion from WWI through the J series. We will see.

AND my NATO contingent - Brits, Germans, French. I like the larger Brit armoured regiment organization, fully-manned.

The Cold War is a favorite study of mine, as is USAREUR and US and British army unit organization.

Plenty yet to do.

[Roger H]

Remember the old saying ……”If they ever have to give Europe an enima , they’d insert it there at Graf .”

I got a project that I’m working , but it’s only about 50% done . I’m working on an early to mid 80s period Nasty Guard Armored Division ( probably the 50th from New Jersey) using the GHQ Israeli M-48s for the M-48A5s, the regular M113s and instead of their poor model of the M150 , I’m using the regular M113 with one of CinC’s ground mount TOW launcher glued next to the vehicle on the base . I saw those guys do an AT up at Drum in 86 and they had still not been issued ITVs in their Mech battalions or their Cav troops . I even finished up the SC Guard 2/263 ADA with a full complement of Dusters and was working on the air Cav troop and aviation battalion with M model Huey Gunships, Loaches and Hueys . Believe it or not, they didn’t retire those until right after Desert Storm .
Their DIVARTY drew the same M-109A2s as the active duty units, but they didn’t have FISTVS for their Bn and Co FSOs. They still ran around in 113s and Jeeps .
They were still using H series TOE in 86, so they had 81mm mortar tracks and M48 AVLB platoons in their armor battalions . A lot of those guys still went to the field in pickle suits and steel pots too. Ah! The good old days of the guard .

[Roger H]

The one problem we had was in 87 at AT at Ft Stewart, they made us stop going off post from the cantonment area or even the field in tactical vehicles because the year before some idiot in the Tennessee Guard went into Hinesville in a five ton and tried to go thru the Burger King pick up line and tore up the curbing and the roof overhang there while trying get his whopper . They didn’t say too much when we’d go through in the contact truck or the company commander’s CUCV as long as we tied the whip aerial down!

[panzergator]

ROGER! I LOVED GRAF! I LIVED HOHENFELS! I EVEN LOVED WILDFLECKEN! How could you SAY such a thing? Now, Fort Polk... THAT was a place in need of an enema. But I would STILL be making pilgrimages to 7ATC if I could. Burger King? Go off post for a SCHNITZEL or a Cordon BLEU!

[Extra Crispy]

I'm currently building a Soviet tank regiment at 1:1. And in today's 3D printing world, you can find more and more of these odd ball vehicles if you look. Truly a golden age for us nerds! Shapeways has been my source for ambulances, for example.

Some times you just rely on paint. My Signal company needs some motorcycle teams - I'm just using WW2 Germans for that and relying on the paint to do the "conversion" for me.

I also have a back story for the unit that lets me "fudge" some of the TO&E (i.e. using different trucks because I already have them, rather than buy another pack for just 1 truck...)