M10 Booker Fans

[panzergator]

See Youtube: The Tragic Tale of M10 Booker.

You may find his information and (anaIysis) more agreeable than mine. It may lead to more sales for GHQ.

Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh. The Chieftain seemed to like it. I still prefer M8. Personal prejudice at work.

[Hoth_902]

Panzer,

I watched this video about a month back. I think Chieftain puts forth a compelling argument in support of the M10. At the very least, I feel he puts forth an argument that it may not have been what everyone wanted but it certainly was not the disaster that the media put forth. As with anything, some where between two points, lies the truth. What I found compelling, in support of his opinion, is that he states that some of his information comes from actual people within the military.

At the end of the day, its hard to say how good or bad the M10 Booker is or how good it could be, because it was cancelled. I am not expert, and talking to people like you and others has shown how little I know, but I believe the same can be said about the Bradley... Pentagon Wars book aside, didn't the Bradley start off with a dark cloud over it. Then turn the page to the gulf war and Ukraine, it seems to have shown its metal in combat.

Just my thoughts... But who am I to lobby one way or another.... at the end of the day I like MGS's... LOL...

I for one will be adding an additional company or two, to my stables of combat vehicles.

[panzergator]

I did not think Bradley was a disaster, although it did seem short on dismounts. The movie was not accurate. I DID think using it for cavalry scouting was idiotic, but, given we went whole hog into heavy cavalry, it worked well enough. (See the Battle of 73 Easting). And it would have done the job in the Fulda covering force, where ARSV would not have. At the time Bradley came out, we were in South Carolina and the guy who ran the hobby shop was a retired corporal major with the Life Guards. I took a horrible ribbing every visit about "reconnaissance-by-Winnebago.". The British approach to cavalry is a bit different from ours.

Chieftain made a lot of my points at the end. It could be another look is justified. BUT! I would like to see a gun vehicle that can go in with the 82nd, a Stryker unit, or a leg infantry battalion. Hellcat approach - adequate gun, fast. Good electronics. Minimal armor. If that isn't enough, likely we shouldn't be sending light troops in, anyway. And it should fit a light cavalry that could augment an airborne or Stryker expeditionary force.

You know, if it looks looks like a tank, someone will try to use it as one. The inclination is almost irresistable. Ask the WWII tank destroyermen.

Tell me how you will modify M10 to make it a good cavalry mount, aside from making the 105mm capable of handling APFSDS rounds. And what about M10 in the same weight range as Russian main battle tanks with a bigger gun and impressive maneuverability and speed?

[chrisswim]

PG,
Good thoughts and comments you made.
For Cav. Scout, here are a few ideas: with ability to defend themselves
1. South Africa, Rooikat with 105mm on 8x8 chassis. This was a choice that I preferred vs. Stryker 105.
2. Italian Centauro, A. Oto Melara 105 mm/52 rifled gun (Centauro)
B. OTO Melara 120mm /45 smoothbore gun (Centauro 2)
3. Swedish CV90-120 if you want tracked.

Rooikat 8x8:

[chrisswim]

Today I succumbed and the M10 company joined 1st Battalion, the Stryker Regiment, in its motor pool. There remains only to add a Stryker AT company and some engineers, I think. Should a second battalion join us, the M10 company will become a brigade asset, but for now, it helps form the Stryker Task Force, part of the fast response brigade.

Is the Booker able to fire the same ammo as the Stryker MGS? The same ammo as the M 60A3/M1 105?

“The M-10 Booker … from the right.”

[redleg]

Nice work Chris! Now I want to get my Booker company out too!

[Hoth_902]

Panzer,

The point I was trying to make is that a lot of US equipment comes into existence with some question on how it would perform. In the begging, correct me if I am wrong, the Bradley was not considered the ideal vehicle for any of the rolls that it was intended.. Then as time went on, the Bradley would prove its worth. Battle of 73 Eastings would be one of the shinning examples... Then comes the Ukraine war and I believe, based on what I have ready and watched, they love it. During the Bradley's service history, this platform continued to evolve and change.. It continues to be a relevant piece of equipment on today's battle fields.. So I ask, could it not be possible that the Booker would as well? Is the Booker so Bad that there is no redeeming qualities that make it useful on today's battle field? Aside from the extra weight, is the vehicle at its limits and no way to improve on it, once in service? I understand that it would be better to have a more capable piece of equipment, out of the gates, but that could be a ways off. Even then, would something new have any better chance of coming out of the gates, close to what it was intended for? It seems to me that most equipment comes out of the gates with some issue and then evolves. Not ideal, but it has worked.

As for "The Chieftain", I felt his video was more objective, in nature. I Feel like he laid out all both sides, so that the watcher could draw there own conclusions. One thing I will point out, I think he made it quite clear that he and some members of the military felt that articles on the M10 were not fully accurate and over sold the issues with the vehicle. I think the word he used was "Hit Piece" meant to fit and agenda, somewhere high up, to kill the program even though it had some value. After watching his video, I left with the feeling that he felt that it had some issues, but still could have entered into service and filled the role it was designed for. Maybe not in the pure sense of what they intended, but fill the role none the less. But hey, maybe we see what we want to see and I missed the intent of his video.

With all that said, I don't disagree, we should have a gun system that fits a Light Cavalry unit. So, here we are, back tot he drawing board. How to improve on the design, well, I will leave it to people like you to answer those questions. I am an aircraft engineer and would not even begin to say I know what the right approach is to fixing the M10 or what to come up with instead...

[panzergator]

The reason I refer the forum to things like Youtubes is because I don't expect people to accept my opinion as the last word. I do think the project manager lost sight of the objective. And the objective was not well-defined. As always, I maintain all blessings flow from a good mission statement. That applies whether it's a combat order or a combat vehicle, or your vacation plan.

[Hoth_902]

Panzer,

Don't Sell your opinion short, It carries a lot of weight with me. Its not the last word, but can be the foundation on developing my own thoughts. Its one of the reasons why i like to push back a little.. Testing my knowledge of things and to test if my assessments have any merit at all. I have no practical experience with any of these weapons systems and tactics. All that I know and have learned is from reading books, watching documentaries and talking with people like you. The later being how I pull everything together with some real world knowledge.

As for your assessment of the M10, I agree it fell short of what it was intended for... Just trying to determine if it was so short it feel on its face or just tripped over the finish line..

[panzergator]

The inimitable law of war is "Ya gotta run whut ya brung.". If that's what we have, we squeeze what we can out of it. So if you want to build a cavalry unit around it, well, it's YOUR ARMY! It may not be the best of all cavalry mounts, but it's better than walking.

In WWII, the US Army passed on the Staghound and took the M8 Greyhound instead. The Brits took all the Staghounds they could get. Turned out the Stag was the better vehicle, but there ya go.

Down the pike, I may find myself with an ACR built with M10s, although I might prefer a lighter vehicle or an amphibious one. My opinions evolve, as well. Maybe I'll rearm some Staghounds, I dunno. We have the luxury of making changes, like the mean kid in Toy Story. Frankenvehicles!

[chrisswim]

Nice read of the commentary here. Thank you gents.