ACR thread, as suggested by Redleg

[panzergator]

Hoth, by have to watch your spelling. Your searching is affected. "Calvary" is a significant hill to Christians. CAVALRY are men in formation fighting n horseback.

Your reference question is beyond my time period

Why were ACRs done away with? The Iraq and Afghanistan wars were infantry-intense and there wasn't call for them. The length of the war bred officers who could not envision their utility in the future. They needed more infantry in the immediate. There is only so much end strength authorized and only so much money. There is also a belief that we must be "lighter," hence Stryker. Sequestration, the " peace dividend" and the belief that Russia had changed, not to mention the belief that the U.S. was the world's only super power and that condition was permanent, all contributed. Shortsighted. My opinion, of course.

[Hoth_902]

Panzergator,

Yea, spelling is not one of my strong points. I think we can all agree to that. However, it does answer a question about the calvary church that I had for many years. LOL Always thought it was a church founded by Horse Cavalry men.. LOL... I crack myself up..

I agree with your thoughts. I get the need for more infantry and lighter form of combat. I just never understood when the military shifts there entire thought process when the threats of old still exist.. Maybe dormant at the time, but not gone. Russia will always be an issue and until they decide no more to people from the former Soviet Union. That is just my uneducated civilian opinion. I also see the Chinese as a big threat, though a land war is probably less likely any time soon.

Its funny, when the F-22 was being produced. They reduced the number of aircraft to be purchased.. No need for a lot , its leaps and bounds better and many years till any country has anything close. Though Russia and China have primitive versions of what we now have, they are at least in the game now. Bet someone wishes they had more F-22s now.. Maybe they should start building the Northrop YF-23. Anywho...

I love the ACR, so in my world they still exist. That is the great thing about Table top war gaming. You can have what ever you want.

[panzergator]

I didn't say I agreed with the decisions. Doctrine could have been modified rather than changed. Having an ACR work with a mech brigade, for instance, or even leaving a real ACR in Germany, for instance...

Div86(J series) units were strong, flexible units. I am sticking with H and J series TO&E for the most part, so I will have strong ACRs.

[redleg]

When I was a dashing young lieutenant the Army had 2 different flavors of cavalry: light and heavy. Heavy was built on tanks and Bradleys and the light cavalry was HMMWV-based. Back then (late 90’s) 3rd ACR was still a heavy armored cavalry regiment, but 2nd ACR had already converted to a light cavalry regiment. I’m not sure exactly when they made the change. I had a homie that was in 2nd Cav as a lieutenant and it was already in HMMWVs when he left the unit in about 2000 or 2001.

You may be thinking of Field Manual 17-97 (Cavalry Troop). The copy I have is from 1995 and it does go into the light cavalry troop organization of 2 scout platoons and 2 AT platoons. Both platoons are based on HMMWVs. I also have a powerpoint deck from the armor school that has the org for 2nd Cavalry Regiment based on Strykers from 2004. So I’m thinking there was about a 10-year window where 2nd Cav was a light cavalry regiment.

I agree that the ACR is a powerful force and very flexible, though as PG pointed out it does lack real infantry. Remember that the cavalry’s primary mission is reconnaissance, security, and enabling the armor and infantry brigades to close with and destroy the enemy. In theory, you wouldn’t maneuver a cavalry unit in the same way that you maneuver tank and infantry units. We seem to be very good at forgetting our own doctrine though! The ACR has a ton of combat power!

Another interesting thing about a cav regiment (at least from an artilleryman’s point of view) is the decentralized artillery. In a normal brigade there is an artillery battalion with 18 guns. In a cavalry regiment the guns are decentralized – one 6-gun battery per squadron. This makes the artillery very responsive because it is owned by the squadron commander, so clearance of fires has fewer layers. On the other hand, each battery is owned by a different squadron commander, so it is very, very difficult to mass all 18 guns on a single target.

[redleg]

Hoth, I just use one of those big sheets of grass for models or train layouts. I roll it up when I'm not using it (or when my wife is on her way home) and then I roll it back out for playing or picture taking. I put some masking tape down for roads, and then peel it off when I'm done.

I'll be moving soon, so hopefully I'll get some dedicated gaming space in the bigger house, but for the time being I'm all about cheap and convenient

[Hoth_902]

Panzergator, I knew you were not agreeing with the decision and I was agreeing with your position. Most of that was me just chatting.

Redleg,
I definitely understand that the an ACR was not really built to do any of the traditional infantry stuff. However thanks for the detail you added. I only know the little I have read and really love the input that both you and Panzergator have provided. This is probably my favorite tread.

I really need to figure out how to make my currrent group think using 285th scale vehicles in a fight. My stuff has only made it on the board once.

(Redleg) I love your roll out grass. I have a local hobby shop with trains and will have to check it out and use that. It looks great and cheap fits the bill for what I want. Fortunately for me, I get a folding table in the office that has all my stuff on it. So I can leave it out if need be.. but it will cut down on working on miniatures. LOL.

Also, I love your Unit flags. I might make a few of them myself, if you don't mind me stealing an idea from you.

[panzergator]

Got some news feeya, Redleg. You get a bigger house, it'll be a LOT MORE about cheap, etc, LOL!

[panzergator]

Agree with Redleg on constitution of cavalry. It is not intended to perform infantry missions. Those are for tank/infantry teams and task forces. CAVALRY is a fast, flexible response force. Their organization and weapons are designed for their missions. Squadrons within the regiment may have disparate missions greatly separated from the squadrons and regimental hq, hence the squadron's organizational arty.

[redleg]

The flags / guidons were easy to make. I just made the flags in powerpoint and then shrunk them down to the right size and printed them out. Cavalry guidons are easy because they don't have any branch insignia on them! I'm also working on some armor, infantry, and artillery guidons that I will use for my next project once the ACR is done.

I have to admit that the guidons do not really serve any purpose on the table except for my own entertainment. Have fun with them. I can send you my powerpoint slid with the cav guidons if you want.

[panzergator]

Of COURSE they serve a purpose! They identify your units, serve as a rally point, and look REALLY GOOD!

[Hoth_902]

Redleg,

I will send you a PM with my email address. I would definitely like the files. As for usefulness, I kind of thought that they would be good for HQ units and being able to spot them on the board. especially if your HQ unit is not a dedicated HQ track and is an M1 or Bradley Plus like Panzergator said, it would help identify my units on the board and mark a rally point. I don't base my units, much like you and others, so units could get blurred. This could help a little to keep things strait.

Just thinking out of the box.

P.S. Yes, they do look really cool.

[redleg]

Fox troop is now ready for action! I suppose that since I have two troops in 2nd Squadron I will need to make the squadron commander to keep these knuckleheads out of trouble. And if I have two squadron commanders, I guess I will need to make the regimental commander too, because even lieutenant colonels can get stupid without some adult supervision! I’m not ready to build the full HHT yet, but I think the commanders, sergeants major, and maybe the chaplains will do.

[redleg]

Road guards, post!

I have 5 ground troops complete so that means that I have 60 dismounted scout teams. Now I can finally realize my dream of putting a battalion run onto the table!

Shhhhhhhhhhh! If you’re quiet, you can hear them calling cadence and grumbling about the slow pace!

Ain’t no sense in goin home…..Jody’s got your girl and gone
Ain’t no sense in feelin blue…..Jody’s got your sister too

[panzergator]

NICE! Pity the guys in back if this is on a Monday.

[panzergator]

I received this interesting note regarding ARMORED CAVALRY UNITS from my friend, Mike, who has been trying to join this forum for over a year, but apparently can't get anyone's attention. Mike has served in and commanded both armored cavalry and armor units, is an accomplished staff officer as well, and worked for both the Army and civilian wargame units/companies. We often commiserate over the demise of armored cavalry, the use of STRYKER vehicles, etc, as old-timers, set in their ways, so often do. He went to high school with my brothers at my high school, marched on the Gator Guard Drill Team at UF several years after I did, served in First Gulf. I've known him a long time and think he would make a great addition to our membership. His knowledge and experience extend over a lengthier time than mine, which could be quite useful. As an aside, I do think the Stryker Cavalry units have some additional electronic surveillance capabilities to facilitate their role, but they are hardly capable of the missions that the older cavalry units could perform. But I could be wrong... For the uninitiated - ABCT=Armored Brigade Combat Team; SBCT=STRYKER Brigade Combat Team; IBCT=Infantry Brigade Combat Team. Since the rise of China and the reappearance of Russia, the Army has begun to convert some SBCTs and IBCTs (not enough) to ABCTs. The "D Company" he is referring to is the tank company of a regimental 1st squadron. 2nd Sharon's would be H, and 3rd's would be M. (No J troop because it is too easily confused with I Troop.)


Jim

Both 2nd and 3rd STRYKER Cavalry Regiments (as they call themselves) are really Motorized Infantry Brigades, even though they get fancy and call them SBCT. They are retained only because they are some of the oldest units in the Army. More often than not, they are apparently usually commanded by infantrymen. Even though they wear crossed sabers.

The 278 ACR was converted to an ABCT.

The 116 Cavalry Brigade a long time ago was an ACR, but converted to a standard brigade much earlier than the loss of the ACRS.

The 11th ACR is configured in its US MTOE as an ABCT but with non-standard TOEs. It has/had a round out armored cavalry squadron from the Nevada National Guard.

The other reason the Army did away with ACRs was they wanted to S T A N D A R D I Z E on only three types of units ABCT, SBCT, and IBCT. Apparently, ACRS and old style Regimental Armored Cavalry Squadrons and Troops are too hard to train by our modern army.

They converted many ABCTs to SBCTs as a way to save money rather than converting IBCTs to SBCTs as a way of improving their mobility and firepower, because even the POS Stryker is better than walking and a shirt.

When I was in D Company, it did indeed have an M577. They had them up till the end.

The manual the guy is looking for is probably FM 17-95 from about 1977. Its on line. He can search for it. Its at steelbeasts.com or something together with other nice manuals.

I'd appreciate it if you would post this. I'm going to call GHQ about the BB soon. But I don't believe he is going to do anything about it. I mean, would you rather have a BB or more models?