Upgunning the T-95

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sultanbev
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Post by sultanbev »

Don S raises a good point there.
The reality is that all these "super=heavy" assault guns and tanks we want to fight armageddon tank battles with ( :lol: ) would in fact most of the time be blowing things up with HE, in support of infantry units.
And with such big guns, even HE would be useful against opposing super-heavy tanks. Less accurate than your fancy AP rounds perhaps, but a direct hit with a 105mm+ HE round is going to spoil your tank's day, briefly at least.

I recently did the MicroMark lists for the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, and was quite astonished to read that the invading Turkish tanks carried 90% HE and only 10% AP type rounds in the initial invasion. The opposing T-34/85s appear to have carried 50% HVAP, 50% HE.

So a 70% HE loadout for T-95, Tortoise, ISU-130 etc would make sense.

Mark

piersyf
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Post by piersyf »

During WW2 US HVAP was not just limited -- it was almost unheard-of. Until perhaps February of March of 1945 the quantities were so small as to be almost irrelevant. (Also the first US HVAP rounds were poor performers. It took a redesign in the fall of 1944 to bring their real-world penetration up anything like their expected performance.

By Korea the US Army saw HVAP as a common item in load-out. It was typically issued at levels almost matched to full bore AP rounds, and was used in almost every tank vs tank engagement.
I think there are a few factors here in regards to availability of HVAP; one is that after WW2 the US offloaded as many tanks as possible (mostly Sherman 75's and 105's), and consolidated their Sherman force into almost all 76mm E8 configuration. With the standardisation of the Sherman at least to 76mm the army could concentrate on specific load outs for that gun. Considering they were expected to go head to head with T34's, HVAP was kinda useful. I think had WW2 continued as per the Wehrmacht '47 premise then the US would have hung on to the Sherman 75's until they could be replaced. This may have hastened the spread of HVAP for 76mm gun tanks, or maybe not. I suspect that if the load out was almost 50% by Korea, with a reduced tank force and 5 years of peace between, the pressures of continuing a war in Europe would suggest to me that HVAP would not go over about 10% of a loadout.

That said, the Comet managed a loadout of around 30% APDS for anti tank use by the end of the war. Admittedly they weren't finding anything to use it on, so input added to zero usage will inevitably lead to a comfortable margin of availability.

Mk 1
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Post by Mk 1 »

piersyf wrote:I think there are a few factors here in regards to availability of HVAP; one is that after WW2 the US offloaded as many tanks as possible (mostly Sherman 75's and 105's), and consolidated their Sherman force into almost all 76mm E8 configuration.
You are quite correct on the US Army's consolidation on 76mm Shermans. Except that the 105s were still highly regarded, and retained along with the 76s. But the 75s went away quickly in the post war scale-down of forces.

Many of the 75mm Shermans, though, were upgunned to the 76mm before being offered through the Military Assistance program. Interestingly, the US Army had rejected Ordnance's upgunning of existing Sherman turrets in 1943, but many US client armies were quite happy to accept Shermans upgunned in the existing turrets in 1946.

(Interestingly many nations that later operated Sherman 75s got them not directly from the US, but from clients of the US Military Assistance program who replaced their wartime Sherman 75s with post-war Sherman 76s.)
With the standardisation of the Sherman at least to 76mm the army could concentrate on specific load outs for that gun. Considering they were expected to go head to head with T34's, HVAP was kinda useful.
Once they got all heads nodding on the need for improved AP performance, and the need for real-world testing of the performance of existing rounds, and got through the cycle of improving the existing rounds as a result of the real-world testing, the US Army pretty thoroughly got onto the HVAP bandwagon. I expect that half of the AP ammo in the load-out would have been HVAP by 1947/48, at least according to load-out plans. What would have actually been issued is a different question.

But that statement comes wrapped in very thick caveats -- first, it is only my assumption based on background information, with no period documents to verify; and second that US Army units were typically below standards on EVERYTHING during the post-war drawdown. Yes, the Army as a whole had an embarrassing inventory of everything, but no one knew what was where, everything was flowing out the door, and competent supply clerks and officers were in precious short supply.
That said, the Comet managed a loadout of around 30% APDS for anti tank use by the end of the war. Admittedly they weren't finding anything to use it on, so input added to zero usage will inevitably lead to a comfortable margin of availability.
I don't have any stats on 77mm APDS, but here are some of what I have on US HVAP and British 17pdr APDS production rates:

US 76mm HVAP:
First production: 1,000 rounds in July 1944.
Some of these rounds were air-frieghted to ETO for the Issigny tests.
Series production: Began September, with 13,000 completed by the end of 1944.
By comparison 3,729,000 full-bore 76mm AP rounds were produced in 1944.
Production in 1945: Another 50,000 HVAP rounds completed January to August.
(Note that while 76mm Shermans remained in service, the M18 TDs were seconded off in the post-ETO timeframe, and no new 76mm-armed vehicles entered production.)

US 3-inch HVAP:
First production: 1,000 rounds in August 1944.
Series production: Began in August, with 14,000 completed by end of 1944.
By comparison 1,489,000 full-bore 3-inch AP rounds were produced in 1944.
Production in 1945: Another 19,000 HVAP rounds were completed January to August.
(Note that all 3-inch guns, towed or in M10 TDs, were leaving service in the post-ETO timeframe.)

British 17pdr APDS:
First production: June 1944.
Series production: Began June 1944, with 35,000 completed by end of 1944.
By comparison 1,089,000 full-bore 17pdr AP rounds (APC and APCBC) were produced in 1944.
Production in 1945: 140,000 through the end of the year.
(Note that 17pdr AT gun remained in service, and Centurion 17pdr was ramping production, and Black Prince 17pdr was anticipated in the post-ETO timeframe.)
-Mark 1
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