Woodsy Woods.

[Ritter]

Hey all.

Im sure you have all experienced the following situation...

The endgame has begun, the commander gathers his forces to assault the final objective, a stand of trees on the crest of a hill. The enemy choose this location well, vehicle cannot even attempt to negotiate the trecherous terrain. The commander gives the order to attack and the well-trained squads race from 2 directions to assault as MGs saturate the target. SUDDENLY! The commander realizes that his 2 platoons of men have absolutley no room to maneuver let alone stand up in the tree infested, overcrowded hex...squads and platoon commanders tip over and fall and markers are hoplessly missplaced, its a disaster! The Commander - in frustration - places stands on the trees and around the hex and grumbles something about "those damn trees..."

Those damn trees...While I adore the GHQ trees for ease of construction and looks, when making a forest hex look like, well a forest, there is really no room for units to be placed. Clumping a few trees together in only a few areas looks too sparce for me and Im not sure that a tree marker wouldnt get moved around too much.

Im looking for any ideas you may have...off to Tom Stocktons for insperation!


Troy

[Gort]

It's one of the trade offs between making diorama terrain (ie realistic) as opposed to gaming terrain. I'm working on some urban terrain at the moment and in order to facilitate play I've had to ensure that streets, alleys, and the space between walls/hedges and the buildings they surround are slightly larger than the infantry/towed gun stands. It's not as realistic as I want, and it irritates the modeller in me, but otherwise it would be too frustrating to play on. As for woods/forests, check out Pibber's posts in the "Show us your Stuff" thread. The foam forests with the lift off lids are a brilliant idea in my opinion. To get a more "realistic" look you could add trees to the perimeter and tree tops to the roof section. Great way to have hidden units emplaced, and fog of war is enhanced when an ATG fires at your units and all you can see is muzzle blast/smoke to indicate its' approximate position. The one thing I'm having trouble modelling is the patch of woods that's been plastered with artillery. Moonscape with shattered lumber and tree stumps. Definately no space to place unit stands.

Regards

Steve

[tstockton]

Troy,

Don't recall who came up with it... someone here on the message board, maybe jb or Mk I? -- but the number of trees on the hex determined the prevailing terrain. Something along the line of

1 tree = minimal (if any) effect
2 trees = light forest
3 or more trees = heavy forest

As a "non-gamer", I usually go for good looking terrain... but I can really see where "realistic" terrain can knock the beejeebers out of "playabliity" -- especially since we play a scales where 1" = 100' (or some such)... I would guess the "number of trees per hex" would be a trade-off on "realism" vs "playability".

Of course, your mileage may vary...

Regards,
Tom Stockton

[Hetzen]

.... check out Pibber's posts in the "Show us your Stuff" thread. The foam forests with the lift off lids are a brilliant idea in my opinion. To get a more "realistic" look you could add trees to the perimeter and tree tops to the roof section. Great way to have hidden units emplaced, and fog of war is enhanced when an ATG fires at your units and all you can see is muzzle blast/smoke to indicate its' approximate position

That really caught my eye too. From a distance they do look really effective.

I've been thinking on how you could improve on the 'realism'. You'd need to use a huge amount of expensive clump follage to cover a similar size, so I've been experimenting with 'blending' bits of foam from old packaging whilst the wife has gone shopping. The idea is to then soak the resulting chunks of foam in green paint, like the stuff you get for garden fences, then packing it onto chicken wire forms, maybe then sprinkle it with flock..

When I've been out driving to work through the country side, I've noticed how little you see of the tree trunks from smaller bushes and plants competing for the space.

Hopefully the paint-wire-foam will bind together. If not you can always soak it in PVA afterwards.

I'll give it a go this weekend and report back.

[Thunder]

For ease of game play, lately I've been mounting my trees on clay so they can be moved a bit if a tank needs to be placed where one is. What I do is create a small ball of clay. Clay like Fimo is actually preferred. Then I press it down on a flat surface to create a shape like a volcano. Then I poke a hole in the center with a thin nail. Then I bake the clay to harden it. When cool, you can place a small tree in the hole with a drop of glue. If you like, you can flock or paint the base too when done.

You can extend this concept by placing the clay on a very small steel washer. This will allow the trees to stick to a magnetic surface. In the case you are excessively organized and like your trees all lined up even in storage, this will allow you to do so if you put magnetic strips in the bottom of a storage container.

[1ComOpsCtr]

Try using trees only along the border of the forest and a forest center section painted black or dark brown on the sides and flocked with faux trees on the top. The center section is removable leaving the forest border to provide the firing lines, protection edge, etc., but the center open to allow troop placement during melee, etc... It would be possible to make large forested plots this way without spending so much on trees...

I will do a demo and post later today if I can...

Will

[Ritter]

I too recall the post of Pibbers forest - although an effort was required to find it again- 90 some pages in the "Show us yer Stuff" thread!

I think there are some good ideas here but like Gort and Tom said, it comes down to one of two things, Realism and Playability.

Extreme realism will always get in the way of gaming - trees get squashed, things break off and units dont fit anywhere. At the extreme of playability, we could simply use a mapboard but this would defeat the 3d effect totally.

I think I am going to try flocking the forest a different color and using the 2 clumps of trees=light woods, 3 - forest approach. Not perfect but a balance of the two.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Troy

[tstockton]

Troy said

At the extreme of playability, we could simply use a mapboard but this would defeat the 3d effect totally.

Or there is the other end of the spectrum, the "utmost" in realism -- "one-to-one scale" in scenery; i.e., 1' on the gaming table = 285' in "real life"!

Of course, one would have to have a lot of room -- and scenery -- to do this... but think how cool it would be!

Regards,
Tom

[jb]

This is the method I use for woods. They are the woodland scenic trees( One tree depending on size will yield a few micro scale trees) cut and attached to 3/4' fender washers. The washers holes were plugged with a self stick "price tag" prior to applying the epoxy glue. Once dry the bases are painted. Having the trees on washers lets you move the individual trees around, so you can move your units in and rearange the trees afterwards. When the troops move out move the trees back. You can make lots if you like woods or just a few for gaming purposes.
For replicating woods I use felt to outline the actual woods,in this way you know exactly if you are in the woods or not. I also use two colors of felt to determine woods density. Green for light and brown for heavy. I find this method the best of both gaming/modeling methods...

[BattlerBritain]

That's the approach I use as well - use coloured felt to mark the woods area and then place the 3D tree models on bases on the felt. You can then move the 3D models around or take them off the table completely if required.

I use a simialr system for buildings. I use a plastic card base painted with a 2D 'satellite' view of the building and then place the 3D building model on top of that. When you need to move a game model into the building you remove the 3D building model and use the 2D base instead.

Seems to work OK.

[1ComOpsCtr]

One for One scale, both equipment, troops, and ground scale is my preference... But, it has limitations.



While moving troops and equipment the players must be careful not to damage the terrain or keep their figures from getting lost... which has happened on my boards before.



Super detailed terrain is great, but it is a lot of preparation work and maintenance, and while it looks wonderful it is difficult to game over at times.

Will

[Scott Washburn]

One method I've used successfully is to glue very short (trimmed down) pins to the trunks of the trees. Then if you have a foam base for your game board (like the GHQ Terrain Maker system), you can just stick the trees into the foam wherever you want them and then still be able to pull them out and reposition them when you need to.

[8ball]

Why not magnetize each tree, using rare earth magnets? You can take them off as you use them.

That's what I do. I purchased the Woodland Scenics tree making kit, and glued a small magnet or a 1/2" steel slug to the base of each tree. I'm using magnetic sheets cut in irregular shapes to indicate treed areas. I'm only using two densities, "trees" and "woods." The base of the "tree" areas is the same color as the surrounding terrain. The base of a "woods" area is a darker flock.

Trees provide a minimum of cover and movement penalty, while woods provide more cover and are untraversable for vehicles.

I'll try and take some pics this weekend.

[tstockton]

8ball said

I'll try and take some pics this weekend.

[ cue Homer Simpson... ]

"Mmmmm... pictures!"

Regards,
Tom Stockton

[Theodore]

An idea that I borrowed uses the little plastic triangles that Pizza shops use to keep the boxes propped up off the pizza. Paint them brownish gray and add foliage clusters to the top. You get small clumps of trees that are easier to move than individual trees and that don't tip over when they are moved around.