Engineer and 37mm ATG

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:22 am

I have an organizational question.
The 1944 TO&OEof enginner battalions show no Half track nor 37mm ATG.

However I hav just read an article praising the role of the combat engineer in the Bulge and there is a picture of a (not specified) engineer unit with an half track towig a 37mm gun.

Quite puzzling. The 37mm may be a left over of the 1943 organization but the half track?

Any suggestion?

WargameHub · Post by **WargameHub** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:49 am

I'm pretty sure that some battalions had halftracks since from 1944 it shows up a lot in pics. Maybe only the ones in Armored units had them?

The 37mm could just be something they picked up along the way.

piersyf · Post by **piersyf** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:07 pm

Armoured Engineer Platoon had 3 half tracks. No AT guns at all. According to Wikipedia (referenced at least) "Under organization from April 1942, each infantry battalion had an anti-tank platoon with four 37 mm guns (1/4 ton trucks, better known as jeeps, were authorized as prime movers) and each regiment an anti-tank company with twelve (towed by 3/4 ton trucks). Each of the four divisional artillery battalions possessed six anti-tank guns, combat engineering battalion nine pieces (towed by M2 halftracks); in addition, divisional headquarters had four (towed by 3/4 ton trucks) and divisional maintenance company two."
Applies to old infantry division organisation (1942/43). Which divisions didn't change? Maybe first infantry? Old enough unit, at the battle...

piersyf · Post by **piersyf** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:37 pm

2nd Armoured Division still used the heavy division layout this had 37mm at the company level for Armoured Engineers.

Armd Engr Co -

Co HQ, consisting of;

HQ Sec (2 offr, 14 EM) + 1 h/t, 2 M/Cs and 2 jeeps
Engr Sec (17 EM) + 1 truck, 1 6-ton truck with winch and 1 jeep
Maint Sec (9 EM) + 1 h/t and 1 jeep
AM&S Sec (19 EM) + 4 trucks and 1 'SP Atk gun'

Three Pls, each consisting of;

Pl HQ (1 offr, 10 EM) + 2 trucks and 2 Jeeps
Three Sqds, each (12 EM) + 1 h/t * also 2 towed 37-mm atk guns across all three Squads

Total, Armd Engr Co; 5 offrs, 197 EM

(per: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=190531)

I have the organisation of the heavy divisions somewhere, but don't remember where, or I'd check this.

Nazgul · Post by **Nazgul** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:19 pm

In my youth I was lucky enough to have access to the libraries on the posts where my father was stationed. I remember reading about how pieces of equipment were procured by the units in the Bulge to bolster their capabilities, either "found" or abdoned. Maybe that is the case in the picture or maybe the picture is just used as filler. I prefer to believe the former.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:56 pm

Thanks to all for the answers but inside he Bulge there were the 9th and 10th Armored division that were not heavy division.

Moreover most of the engineer units involved were Combat engineer battalions (not armoured).

Besides that I have the TO&E 5-15 (Combat engineer, March 1944) and 5-215 (armoured engineer, Nov. 44) and in both thre are no half tracks.

Now may be too early for the implementatio of updated 5-215 but I find difficult to understand the direct passage from a unit on hal tracks to one on wheeled vehice only. There should be some intermediate/modified TO&E

Merry Christmas to all.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:23 am

Waiting for Christmas I have downloaded the FM 17-45 "The Armored Engineer Battalion" of 15 June 1944.

At first glance there are few Hal tracks:
3 in the command section of the battalion HQ
1 in HQ secion of eCJÃ¬H COMPny
3 in one platoon only of each company (the other two platoons are on trucks)

No 37mm ATG.

The question is to know when this organization was implemented and to whic units.

I'Now I wiil have a midnight dinner so I will read the full FM tomorrow.

Meery Christmas again

piersyf · Post by **piersyf** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:25 am

There was a lot more than the 9th and 10th AD inside the Bulge. Actually in the battle zone before Christmas 1944 was the 7th AD, 3rd AD, and depending on whether the units holding the line count, 11th AD and 2nd AD. The 3rd AD, a heavy division, was involved at Manhay, Stoumont and La Gleize. TF Kane for one had a company of combat engineers attached which, by their TO&E, would have had 37mm guns and M2 halftracks.

pibber · Post by **pibber** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:08 pm

Hello TAMMY (and others !) !

Here is what I have (from fantastic book "United States Army ground forces - TOE's WWII - The armored division 1940-1945 volume 2/II - J.J. Hays") :
T/O & E 5-217, 20 november 1944, company, Armored engineers battalion :
(US Armored division)

1/ Co HQ :
HQ :
1 - M3HT (R)
1 - jeep (R)

Engineer section :
1- GMC Compressor
1 - Treadway + dozer carrying on heavy trailor

Maintenance section :
1 - jeep
1 - Dodge 4x4 WC

Administrative and supply :
1- GMC truck 6x6 + trailor (kitchen)

2/ 3x engineers platoons :
- 1st platoon :
1- Jeep (R)
1 - GMC truck 6x6 + trailor
3 - M3 halftrack (13 men inside each)
1 - utility trailer

- 2nd and 3rd platoons (each) :
1- Jeep (R)
1 - GMC truck 6x6 + trailor
3 - GMC Dump truck (13 men inside each) (one GMC with HMG Hv HMG pupilt)
1 - utility trailer

Conclusion :
"Armored" engineers Btn companies had 3 halftracks,
"Infantry" engineers Btn had only GMC Dump trucks in the first, second and third platoons.

So, I'm agree with "WargameHub" :
"I'm pretty sure that some battalions had halftracks since from 1944 it shows up a lot in pics. Maybe only the ones in Armored units had them?
The 37mm could just be something they picked up along the way."

Last note :
In US engineers TOE's from 1944, there's no 37mm AT gun tracted.
Tracted 37mm ATG are only present in the "bridge company" (Treadway) in the 1st april 1943 Armd. Btn. organization instead of M6SP AT gun in Treadway platoons...
The prime mover for 37mm ATG was "Jeep")

Merry christmas to all of you !

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:42 pm

It seems that I started this thread by a reading mistake.

I have the detailed TO&E's 5-215, 5-216 and 5-217 dated Nov 44 and I was looking for half-track thinking that the equipment listed was grouped by type.
Istead it is in aphabetical order and the half-tracks are listed as "car, half, track, M3A2 so they are listed between "Carbine" and "Gun, machine, Browning " (just were I did not look).

It's like the "jeep" that is listed as "Truck, 1/4-ton, 4x4" or the "bazooka" listed as "launcher, rocket, 2.36-inch, M9"

So please excuse me for the loss of time in answering..