Hi Gang
I just thought I would start a new thread called "Growing the Hobby". Another name for this topic could be "It's Glad Really" as opposed to the true but somewhat depressing topic called It's Sad Really" about the store closings. I will start off with my experiences but am also very interested to hear from you on what we are doing to grow the historical miniature gaming hobby with particular emphasis on GHQ products in particular.
I have had some modest success so far here in the greater Phoenix area in getting miniatures players with GHQ micro armor in particular.
One of the advantages I have here in Phoenix is a support group of local gamers called the North Phoenix Irregulars which I joined in the late 1990's. This is a group that is dedicated to playing historical miniatures games. The members can be contacted via e-mail and games can be arranged. Typically they play on Friday nights whenever someone decides to host a game. I usually run my games on Saturday but send out a mass e-mail to let people know.
The other advantage that I have is having a game store here in the Phoenix area called Imperial Outpost. The owner, Darren Johnson allows people to play in his store and on his tables with prior coordination. Darren carries mostly Fantasy and Sci Fi stuff but also has Flames of War and has started carrying GHQ products - somewhat limited for the store so far but he can order anything people need. He had some of the Napoleonic sailing ships in the store and one customer bought the whole lot.
The great thing about doing my Mein Panzer games in the store as opposed to home is that it displays the game to people that may have no idea what historical gaming is all about. This gives increased exposure and I now have a small core of 4 to 5 guys that will play this on a regular basis with another 4 to 6 that have played it and really seemed to like it including one young female role player that said she had a blast.
Some things I have tried to do to make the games appealing and fun are as follows.
1. I use Terrain Maker which provides a great system and looks really good in my opinion. The terrain will be the first thing people will see of a game when they walk by the table and should be attractive to catch the eye in a positive way - especially with all the other Fantasy stuff around.
2. I use GHQ products because to me they are the best and even better than a lot of stuff in larger scales. I have everything painted and try to make it look reasonably good. I
3. I make enough copies of the charts for everyone to have one when they play. I am happy to resolve questions during play to ensure everyone has a good experience.
4. I try to make interesting scenarios and not the wall to wall parking lots of tanks that i see in some games such as some Flames of War games for example. I devised a scenario last year called "Running the Gauntlet" which has German truck convoys trying to get back across a bridge held open by a German rearguard in the face of advancing Russians in 1942 although this could take place in any year. My scenarios are not strictly historical but designed to show what could have happened and using forces that were available during the time period selected. So far I have done Russian Front 1942 but have plans to expand to later years and N. Africa as I can get everything painted. Some of the guys that I got to play have now bought their own GHQ micro armor and are painting it. That will take some pressure off of me in the long run.
I will end my post here for now. Let me know your stories as well.
Pete - Binpicker Out!
Growing the Hobby
Moderators: dnichols, GHQ, Mk 1
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fullmetaljacket
- E5
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- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:18 am
- Location: Warsaw, Indiana
Hello Pmskaar nice thread and nice naration. First of all let me say I only wish you and your group lived near me in Northern Indiana. Forturenately i have a great gaming group here also. I to have just got into micro armor in the last year or so. Though i have been a long time war and historical gamer for years. Mostly in 1/72 scale. Problem being we all wanted to play in bigger battles, but on a 8' by 4' board most people only had one or two vehicles and the ranges for the guns and equipment never really came into play. Now In my group i have roughly 10 to 12 guys no females yet, but would take any comers. So, most weekends we play we usually have 4 to 8 show up. We play at a local college and also in my 3 car garage. All the guys here to are really getting into micro armor and buying and painting there stuff also. Now luckly i meet up with JB which we all know from these forums, and he does all my paiting so far and he does awesome work. I'm getting ready to try some for myself real soon. We are starting a North Africa campaign in July. Also I know JB which is only 4 hrs from me has a decent gaming group in southern Wisconsin. We try to get together once every few months for a weekend of gaming. Ok enough about me now to hit on a few things you wrote about.
1. Terrian maker is awesome and like you i love to see a great terrian made board or battlefield. The problem there is the time and effort to make it all. So, we use simplicity to a point and try and make the terrian good as we can for now its a learning curve, but we are getting better at it. A well made battleboard or terrian makes the player really feel involved and into the game.
2. I also only use GHQ products and from what i have seen online they are the best all around product when it comes to micro armor. For buildings timecast really does a good job to. As far as painting well i have just started on that endevour wish me luck.
3. I also since i run most of the games around here have enough copies and charts and any other supply needed for the game. Luckly i have a great support of guys who would not and will not steal or break or lose anything. That is one thing I'm always leary about when going to a con is some one breaking or stealing my hard earned money or work.
4. Scenarios is a great way to mix it up. I try to get scenarios for my games, because a point buy game gets out of hand real quick. Oh look its a company of tiger 2's and jagd tigers again. Some times i get player complaints how this isnt real or this isnt fair, my usually reply is hey you have the rules you have the time design your own scenario then. That usually ends that conversation then and there. Your running the Gauntlet sounds like similar scenario i did last fall.
Ok for helping the hobby along well that is harder than we all think. I recall Me and JB started a thread on here several months ago about the same idea of geting several of us together and trying to get a micro armor only type of CON going here in the midwest. Well it only lead to pretty much everyone bickering about things that we should not even be bickering about. I know me and JB would still be up for something like that still, but the thread pretty much died off and everyone lost interest. As far as getting new blood into the hobby that is even harder to do. For the most part the younger generation wants instant gradification and reward hense the xbox, playstation, and nintendo revoulation in the last 15 years. I mean and this is no disrespect to anyone under the age of 22 but most have the attention span of a gnat! That is why you have FOW and Warhammer 40K and Battletech now that wizkids tore it all apart and ruined a great game. But really what I'm saying is that most younger people wont take the time to learn the rules, build the armires, and actually think about tactics and strategies. They would rather push a button and stare at a video monitor for hours. Now dont get me wrong i love my xbox 360, but i love to get together with my friends and play micro armor and socialize also. The gaming world was ruined and marked to a point the day atari came out with the 2600:) As for hobby stores the main reason most are no longer in bussiness or carries anything but what is hot right now, which is another yui-ge-oh or magic card game. Is it is way to easy to buy anything on line direct from the company. I recall growing up in Elwood Indiana and back in the eighties and early nineties, they had a hobby store the size that you would not believe if you could think of it they had it. I mean it was literally a old warehouse and it was full of anything and everything hobby related it was heaven. They had gaming rooms for D&D for minititures, RC cars etc etc.... I know at one time it was the largest hobby store east of the Mississippi river. But sadly it closed down in the mid nineties due to lack of interest and support. Well i have babbled enough and some of my thoughts and i hope i did not offend anyone that is not my point, only my observation of a era of gaming that i wish i would have grown up in a little more. But I to wish to hear others ideas and thoughts and would love to help build the hobby we all love. take care all and i hope this made sense its 5am and I'm half asleep.
FMJ
1. Terrian maker is awesome and like you i love to see a great terrian made board or battlefield. The problem there is the time and effort to make it all. So, we use simplicity to a point and try and make the terrian good as we can for now its a learning curve, but we are getting better at it. A well made battleboard or terrian makes the player really feel involved and into the game.
2. I also only use GHQ products and from what i have seen online they are the best all around product when it comes to micro armor. For buildings timecast really does a good job to. As far as painting well i have just started on that endevour wish me luck.
3. I also since i run most of the games around here have enough copies and charts and any other supply needed for the game. Luckly i have a great support of guys who would not and will not steal or break or lose anything. That is one thing I'm always leary about when going to a con is some one breaking or stealing my hard earned money or work.
4. Scenarios is a great way to mix it up. I try to get scenarios for my games, because a point buy game gets out of hand real quick. Oh look its a company of tiger 2's and jagd tigers again. Some times i get player complaints how this isnt real or this isnt fair, my usually reply is hey you have the rules you have the time design your own scenario then. That usually ends that conversation then and there. Your running the Gauntlet sounds like similar scenario i did last fall.
Ok for helping the hobby along well that is harder than we all think. I recall Me and JB started a thread on here several months ago about the same idea of geting several of us together and trying to get a micro armor only type of CON going here in the midwest. Well it only lead to pretty much everyone bickering about things that we should not even be bickering about. I know me and JB would still be up for something like that still, but the thread pretty much died off and everyone lost interest. As far as getting new blood into the hobby that is even harder to do. For the most part the younger generation wants instant gradification and reward hense the xbox, playstation, and nintendo revoulation in the last 15 years. I mean and this is no disrespect to anyone under the age of 22 but most have the attention span of a gnat! That is why you have FOW and Warhammer 40K and Battletech now that wizkids tore it all apart and ruined a great game. But really what I'm saying is that most younger people wont take the time to learn the rules, build the armires, and actually think about tactics and strategies. They would rather push a button and stare at a video monitor for hours. Now dont get me wrong i love my xbox 360, but i love to get together with my friends and play micro armor and socialize also. The gaming world was ruined and marked to a point the day atari came out with the 2600:) As for hobby stores the main reason most are no longer in bussiness or carries anything but what is hot right now, which is another yui-ge-oh or magic card game. Is it is way to easy to buy anything on line direct from the company. I recall growing up in Elwood Indiana and back in the eighties and early nineties, they had a hobby store the size that you would not believe if you could think of it they had it. I mean it was literally a old warehouse and it was full of anything and everything hobby related it was heaven. They had gaming rooms for D&D for minititures, RC cars etc etc.... I know at one time it was the largest hobby store east of the Mississippi river. But sadly it closed down in the mid nineties due to lack of interest and support. Well i have babbled enough and some of my thoughts and i hope i did not offend anyone that is not my point, only my observation of a era of gaming that i wish i would have grown up in a little more. But I to wish to hear others ideas and thoughts and would love to help build the hobby we all love. take care all and i hope this made sense its 5am and I'm half asleep.
FMJ
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tstockton
- E5
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- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:55 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
FullMetalJacket,
You touched on a couple of points I'd like to comment on, if you don't mind...
(1) Terrain Maker
I concur with you on the point of the "time and effort" of making the individual hexes. I think the "trick" here is patience -- no one is going to complete enough hexes to field a full battleground overnight... and I doubt anyone could do it in a week... or maybe even a month. An entire battleground -- daunting! But a single 4" hex -- hey, I can do that! And after a few of those "I can do that!"s, one starts to get somewhere (so to speak).
I've "only" been dabbling in Terrain Maker for a little over a year, and I don't think I have 100 hexes done... yet. The trick -- patience! As I am not really a gamer, I looked at each hex as more of a "mini-diorama" -- a base to place models on. And after getting "bit by the bug" via GHQ's "how-to" video, their "Normandy" book, and pictures I've seen posted here, there, and elsewhere on the Internet, I jumped in and started building my own hexes. One of these days soon, I'm going to take my hexes outside and set them up in the driveway, and take some pictures of "what I have"... I think I'm going to like it!
So -- don't get discouraged because you're not "where you want to be" yet. Keep plugging along -- you will get there!
(2) As for the "younger people" -- well, as the father of a teenaged son, I have to agree with you... but only to a point. Yes, it is also my observation that they are much more into "instant gratification". But I still have hope for "them", because they are not going to be "young people" forever... and as I have learned myself, as one gets older, one usually does become more patient. And with that patience comes a little less of the "need" for that "instant gratification", and more of a sense of satisfaction when a more difficult task is successfully brought to a completion. I think a part of the "trick" to plant the seeds when they are young; my son has looked over my shoulder at my modeling, and has dabbled with it somewhat. (For a while, he was really into the fantasy miniatures -- coinciding with the release of the "Lord of the Rings" movies.) Recently, I asked him if he'd done any painting or modeling lately; his reply was that he was so busy with other things (school, friends, part-time job, etc.), he didn't really have time...
However -- and I hope I'm right on this one -- the "seed" has been planted. Some day down the road... when he finishes his schooling, gets established in "the real world", etc. -- he will look back on the enjoyment he got from those models and wish to go back to "that simpler time". And -- VOILA! We have another hobbyist in our ranks!
But that is not the only way to introduce someone to the joys of our miniature worlds -- I think Pete and you and everyone else are most assuredly correct in that catching the eye of "bystanders" at a hobby shop or gaming convention (or whatever) can also bring in "new blood". I have also read that Internet exposure works well... and I have hopes that our presence here on-line might help to increase our numbers as well.
Anyway, now I've been rambling... thanks for letting me spend some time on my "soap box" and reading through this note!
Regards,
Tom Stockton
You touched on a couple of points I'd like to comment on, if you don't mind...
(1) Terrain Maker
I concur with you on the point of the "time and effort" of making the individual hexes. I think the "trick" here is patience -- no one is going to complete enough hexes to field a full battleground overnight... and I doubt anyone could do it in a week... or maybe even a month. An entire battleground -- daunting! But a single 4" hex -- hey, I can do that! And after a few of those "I can do that!"s, one starts to get somewhere (so to speak).
I've "only" been dabbling in Terrain Maker for a little over a year, and I don't think I have 100 hexes done... yet. The trick -- patience! As I am not really a gamer, I looked at each hex as more of a "mini-diorama" -- a base to place models on. And after getting "bit by the bug" via GHQ's "how-to" video, their "Normandy" book, and pictures I've seen posted here, there, and elsewhere on the Internet, I jumped in and started building my own hexes. One of these days soon, I'm going to take my hexes outside and set them up in the driveway, and take some pictures of "what I have"... I think I'm going to like it!
So -- don't get discouraged because you're not "where you want to be" yet. Keep plugging along -- you will get there!
(2) As for the "younger people" -- well, as the father of a teenaged son, I have to agree with you... but only to a point. Yes, it is also my observation that they are much more into "instant gratification". But I still have hope for "them", because they are not going to be "young people" forever... and as I have learned myself, as one gets older, one usually does become more patient. And with that patience comes a little less of the "need" for that "instant gratification", and more of a sense of satisfaction when a more difficult task is successfully brought to a completion. I think a part of the "trick" to plant the seeds when they are young; my son has looked over my shoulder at my modeling, and has dabbled with it somewhat. (For a while, he was really into the fantasy miniatures -- coinciding with the release of the "Lord of the Rings" movies.) Recently, I asked him if he'd done any painting or modeling lately; his reply was that he was so busy with other things (school, friends, part-time job, etc.), he didn't really have time...
However -- and I hope I'm right on this one -- the "seed" has been planted. Some day down the road... when he finishes his schooling, gets established in "the real world", etc. -- he will look back on the enjoyment he got from those models and wish to go back to "that simpler time". And -- VOILA! We have another hobbyist in our ranks!
But that is not the only way to introduce someone to the joys of our miniature worlds -- I think Pete and you and everyone else are most assuredly correct in that catching the eye of "bystanders" at a hobby shop or gaming convention (or whatever) can also bring in "new blood". I have also read that Internet exposure works well... and I have hopes that our presence here on-line might help to increase our numbers as well.
Anyway, now I've been rambling... thanks for letting me spend some time on my "soap box" and reading through this note!
Regards,
Tom Stockton
"Well, I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones. You sure you got today's codes?"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
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fullmetaljacket
- E5
- Posts: 407
- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:18 am
- Location: Warsaw, Indiana
Nice reply Tom. I thought of something else last night once i logged off. When i was younger we did have all the time to play but no funds to purchase the products, now we have the funds but no time to play with the products it seems with jobs, life, families etc... Also Tom where do you live i see you are from Indiana are you any where near northern part south bend or fort wayne. I live roughly 45 minutes between each one in Warsaw. Maybe we could get together some time and battle it out?
FMJ
FMJ
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tstockton
- E5
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- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:55 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
FMJ,
The only difference
Between the Men and the Boys
are the size and the price
of theToys!!
As for "where" in Indiana... I'm on the south side of Indy, been here almost thirty years (though not always in the same place). But I have to confess -- I'm not a "gamer". While I was able to "hold my own" on the naval side of things, when it came to the ground... well, let's just say my friends loved having me around, since I usually ended up on the losing side of things...
But thanks for the invite -- I do appreciate it!
Regards,
Tom
Boy, ain't that the truth!! Of course, I remember when it was a big deal when Mom gave me fifty cents and I'd go down to the "five and dime" and buy a new pack of army men for use in the sandbox... The other "saw" I've heard goes along the lines of...When i was younger we did have all the time to play but no funds to purchase the products, now we have the funds but no time to play with the products it seems with jobs, life, families etc...
The only difference
Between the Men and the Boys
are the size and the price
of theToys!!
As for "where" in Indiana... I'm on the south side of Indy, been here almost thirty years (though not always in the same place). But I have to confess -- I'm not a "gamer". While I was able to "hold my own" on the naval side of things, when it came to the ground... well, let's just say my friends loved having me around, since I usually ended up on the losing side of things...
But thanks for the invite -- I do appreciate it!Regards,
Tom
"Well, I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones. You sure you got today's codes?"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
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fullmetaljacket
- E5
- Posts: 407
- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:18 am
- Location: Warsaw, Indiana
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pmskaar
- E5
- Posts: 2173
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:45 am
Growing the Hobby
FMJ and Tom
Great Posts! I have been blessed here in Phoenix with my support network that has made it easy to just post my game information and then see who replies. I usually have a good idea before game day how many to expect, but not always. So far though I've always had at least 2 other players and have never had to cancel - i.e. I gave a war and nobody came.
Most of the longer standing members of North Phoenix Irregulars are not really into GHQ Micro Armor but have done games with the micronauts for WWII and Napoleonic. Most of these guys prefer larger scales for WWII. Differing tastes I suppose but that is not necessarily bad for the overall hobby.
Some of the guys that I have gotten involved in GHQ Micro Armor were original members of the group and some have just recently joined. Right now the players range in age from 26 to the 50's. One member of my church that is a Warhammer player expressed an interest in playing a game sometime and getting his young boy involved.
As I stated in my initial post it is also an advantage here to have a game store that is healthy and allows me to use the facilities. I remember one day that I was doing my Russian Front game during a Warhammer tournament in the store. The GW guy came up to the table and asked about how I did the terrain. When I told him it was GHQ Terrain Maker he said something to the effect of " I got to get me some of that".
My current goal is to keep the players that I have interested by doing games on a regular basis - for me generally about 1 per month if my schedule permits. I also hope to get some more younger players involved but I try to make anyone welcome. Some ideas in addition to those already stated before are as follows.
1. Keep the game interesting but if trying for new blood I believe that one should not make things overly complex in terms of information that needs to be processed. So far I have been doing Mein Panzer with the advanced rules for tanks only since I need to get some infantry completed. The advantage here is that there is not a whole slew of rules that need to be absorbed and the players concentrate on moving and fighting their units.
I can explain the core rules and do a demo in about 10 minutes and with the experienced players there it helps move things along.
2. Make the game of reasonable duration. I regard 3 to 5 hours as reasonable - your opinion may differ but the game should be decided in a reasonable amount of time. As players gain experience they may want more complex and longer scenarios.
3. Make sure everyone is involved that wants to be. A new guy might want to get into the action right away or maybe would rather have the reinforcing group so he can watch for a bit to see how the other guys play.
4. Make the game pretty. This will probably attract lots of people that wouldn't give it a second look otherwise. When they see your group is having fun as well it will pique their interest even more. It doesn't have to be Terrain Maker but nice terrain will set off that gaming experience even better.
5. Lastly I want to say that my gaming group is a bunch of great guys. I have had help setting up and taking down every time without asking. They also provide good word of mouth for other people that just might take the Micro Armor plunge.
Have a great day!
Pete - Binpicker Out!
Great Posts! I have been blessed here in Phoenix with my support network that has made it easy to just post my game information and then see who replies. I usually have a good idea before game day how many to expect, but not always. So far though I've always had at least 2 other players and have never had to cancel - i.e. I gave a war and nobody came.
Most of the longer standing members of North Phoenix Irregulars are not really into GHQ Micro Armor but have done games with the micronauts for WWII and Napoleonic. Most of these guys prefer larger scales for WWII. Differing tastes I suppose but that is not necessarily bad for the overall hobby.
Some of the guys that I have gotten involved in GHQ Micro Armor were original members of the group and some have just recently joined. Right now the players range in age from 26 to the 50's. One member of my church that is a Warhammer player expressed an interest in playing a game sometime and getting his young boy involved.
As I stated in my initial post it is also an advantage here to have a game store that is healthy and allows me to use the facilities. I remember one day that I was doing my Russian Front game during a Warhammer tournament in the store. The GW guy came up to the table and asked about how I did the terrain. When I told him it was GHQ Terrain Maker he said something to the effect of " I got to get me some of that".
My current goal is to keep the players that I have interested by doing games on a regular basis - for me generally about 1 per month if my schedule permits. I also hope to get some more younger players involved but I try to make anyone welcome. Some ideas in addition to those already stated before are as follows.
1. Keep the game interesting but if trying for new blood I believe that one should not make things overly complex in terms of information that needs to be processed. So far I have been doing Mein Panzer with the advanced rules for tanks only since I need to get some infantry completed. The advantage here is that there is not a whole slew of rules that need to be absorbed and the players concentrate on moving and fighting their units.
I can explain the core rules and do a demo in about 10 minutes and with the experienced players there it helps move things along.
2. Make the game of reasonable duration. I regard 3 to 5 hours as reasonable - your opinion may differ but the game should be decided in a reasonable amount of time. As players gain experience they may want more complex and longer scenarios.
3. Make sure everyone is involved that wants to be. A new guy might want to get into the action right away or maybe would rather have the reinforcing group so he can watch for a bit to see how the other guys play.
4. Make the game pretty. This will probably attract lots of people that wouldn't give it a second look otherwise. When they see your group is having fun as well it will pique their interest even more. It doesn't have to be Terrain Maker but nice terrain will set off that gaming experience even better.
5. Lastly I want to say that my gaming group is a bunch of great guys. I have had help setting up and taking down every time without asking. They also provide good word of mouth for other people that just might take the Micro Armor plunge.
Have a great day!
Pete - Binpicker Out!
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jb
- E5
- Posts: 2160
- Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:13 am
- Location: Antananarivo
Wow! a lot of writing to be done on this thread.
Around here not too many are into micro armour. As a matter of fact I haven't taken a micro Armour game to a Con or the shop since 2001. It seems that everybody around here is into 15s,1/72,and others. In the last 2 years i have been bringing my ACW game to the shop. I do get some to play usually the ones who played it,like it and come back for more. When I'm at the shop I see more fantasy,WH40K,Mordheim, what have you. I see nobody bring in Micro armour games. Its probably my last one that was in 2001 that I've seen.
I think that what FMJ,binpicker,and T Stockton brought up about terrain holds true. You need to have a "wonderful" presentation,to lure in the new. My last micro armour game has the quick change terrain- functional-but not as "pretty". Of course anybody that knows me,knows that I do campaign style gaming where constant terrain change is a must.
Maybe one of these days (yeah, I too have no spare time), I will have some nice "dedicated" terrain to lure in the young at the shop...
Around here not too many are into micro armour. As a matter of fact I haven't taken a micro Armour game to a Con or the shop since 2001. It seems that everybody around here is into 15s,1/72,and others. In the last 2 years i have been bringing my ACW game to the shop. I do get some to play usually the ones who played it,like it and come back for more. When I'm at the shop I see more fantasy,WH40K,Mordheim, what have you. I see nobody bring in Micro armour games. Its probably my last one that was in 2001 that I've seen.
I think that what FMJ,binpicker,and T Stockton brought up about terrain holds true. You need to have a "wonderful" presentation,to lure in the new. My last micro armour game has the quick change terrain- functional-but not as "pretty". Of course anybody that knows me,knows that I do campaign style gaming where constant terrain change is a must.
Maybe one of these days (yeah, I too have no spare time), I will have some nice "dedicated" terrain to lure in the young at the shop...
John
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pmskaar
- E5
- Posts: 2173
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:45 am
Growing the Hobby
JB thanks for your thoughts here. I have to admit that many here in Phoenix are into other scales and rules sets. Flames of War is very popular with a lot of folks in the Phoenix area. Most of the people that I have involved in my games still enjoy Flames of War but they are coming over to the fact that with Micro Armor you can get a really decent game on a 4 X 8 table and not have a parking lot of tanks staring at each other at point blank range. Many of those people were former Warhammer and Fantasy players and some still are. I'm just trying to expand their horizons a bit. With the quality of GHQ models they are amazed at the detail. The fact that the store is now carrying a limited selection of GHQ items and can order for customers is also helpful.
The key responsibility I have right now is to keep doing what I'm doing which is to regularly host games and keep GHQ Micro Armor regardless of which rules are being used in the public eye. I have several guys that are now painting their own stuff and using it in my games which helps me out by my not having to provide everything. Rich has also bought some terrain maker and wants to do his own terrain at some point and has asked me to help him get started which I have agreed to.
Pete - Binpicker, Out!
The key responsibility I have right now is to keep doing what I'm doing which is to regularly host games and keep GHQ Micro Armor regardless of which rules are being used in the public eye. I have several guys that are now painting their own stuff and using it in my games which helps me out by my not having to provide everything. Rich has also bought some terrain maker and wants to do his own terrain at some point and has asked me to help him get started which I have agreed to.
Pete - Binpicker, Out!
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tstockton
- E5
- Posts: 715
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:55 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
Pete,
Something you might want to consider (actually, we all might want to consider!) -- if you have guys who are interested in building terrain, have them check out some of the model railroading scenery books / videotapes / magazines / what-have-you. I know that's where I learned 90% of my "scenery skills".
Two points I'd like to make, if I may...
(1) Modeling is modeling. The skills learned / polished / perfected in any modeling genre carry over to other genres as well. It doesn't matter if one is filing off a seam line from a 1/72 scale airplane or a 1/285 scale tank or a 1/1200 scale ship or a 10mm soldier -- what matters is that one is filing off a seam line! Now naturally, there are differences in the materials used -- the styrene plastic of the airplane, the resin of the ship, the metal in the tank or soldier -- but the technique is still pretty much the same. Referring "back" to the model railroading... scenery is scenery -- it doesn't matter if it's 1/48 scale or 1/87 scale or 1/160 scale or 1/220 scale or even our "chosen" 1/285 scale -- one is a little larger than the other, but the methods and techniques are still the same. And some of the model railroading folks have that scenery "stuff" down to a fine art! Not only that, but most of them are more than willing to share the "how-to's" with anyone who would care to learn... hence, the number of "how-to" articles in magazines, books, videotapes, websites, etc. We should take advantage of that, to improve our modeling efforts.
(2) Hands-on is a must! I think terrain might actually be a great place to get someone started. In my experience / opinion, scenery seems to be very "forgiving" of errors! While a kit must be assembled with all the parts in the right place, paint must be applied with some precision, markings must be placed accurately, etc. -- terrain seems to require much less precision! So what if a particular tree is 1/8" to the right of where you intended it to be... that's where the tree "grew", right!? I have also found that the more terrain I've built... the "better" my terrain seems to be getting! Again, the "hands on" portion comes into play... my techniques, skills, and knowledge seem to be growing. (Now, if I could only get my blackwash / drybrush techinques up to snuff... but that's another story!)
I think Terrain Maker is an absolutely wonderful place to start, for one "little" BIG reason -- a 4" hex is large enough to be easily handled, but small enough to not be intimidating! And while there is the "time factor" of having for wait for paint and/or glue to dry, it really doesn't take too long for tangible results to be seen. So, Pete -- steer your "rookies" into building terrain... hopefully, it will give them the confidence of seeing something they built on the gaming table, and whet their appitites further!
Hmmm... one of these days, "youze guys" are going to stop by and take my soap box away from me... Sorry for the "excessive length" of my posts as of late. Thanks for reading through it all -- I just wanted to give "y'all" some more encouragement!!
Regards,
Tom
Something you might want to consider (actually, we all might want to consider!) -- if you have guys who are interested in building terrain, have them check out some of the model railroading scenery books / videotapes / magazines / what-have-you. I know that's where I learned 90% of my "scenery skills".
Two points I'd like to make, if I may...
(1) Modeling is modeling. The skills learned / polished / perfected in any modeling genre carry over to other genres as well. It doesn't matter if one is filing off a seam line from a 1/72 scale airplane or a 1/285 scale tank or a 1/1200 scale ship or a 10mm soldier -- what matters is that one is filing off a seam line! Now naturally, there are differences in the materials used -- the styrene plastic of the airplane, the resin of the ship, the metal in the tank or soldier -- but the technique is still pretty much the same. Referring "back" to the model railroading... scenery is scenery -- it doesn't matter if it's 1/48 scale or 1/87 scale or 1/160 scale or 1/220 scale or even our "chosen" 1/285 scale -- one is a little larger than the other, but the methods and techniques are still the same. And some of the model railroading folks have that scenery "stuff" down to a fine art! Not only that, but most of them are more than willing to share the "how-to's" with anyone who would care to learn... hence, the number of "how-to" articles in magazines, books, videotapes, websites, etc. We should take advantage of that, to improve our modeling efforts.
(2) Hands-on is a must! I think terrain might actually be a great place to get someone started. In my experience / opinion, scenery seems to be very "forgiving" of errors! While a kit must be assembled with all the parts in the right place, paint must be applied with some precision, markings must be placed accurately, etc. -- terrain seems to require much less precision! So what if a particular tree is 1/8" to the right of where you intended it to be... that's where the tree "grew", right!? I have also found that the more terrain I've built... the "better" my terrain seems to be getting! Again, the "hands on" portion comes into play... my techniques, skills, and knowledge seem to be growing. (Now, if I could only get my blackwash / drybrush techinques up to snuff... but that's another story!)
I think Terrain Maker is an absolutely wonderful place to start, for one "little" BIG reason -- a 4" hex is large enough to be easily handled, but small enough to not be intimidating! And while there is the "time factor" of having for wait for paint and/or glue to dry, it really doesn't take too long for tangible results to be seen. So, Pete -- steer your "rookies" into building terrain... hopefully, it will give them the confidence of seeing something they built on the gaming table, and whet their appitites further!
Hmmm... one of these days, "youze guys" are going to stop by and take my soap box away from me... Sorry for the "excessive length" of my posts as of late. Thanks for reading through it all -- I just wanted to give "y'all" some more encouragement!!
Regards,
Tom
"Well, I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones. You sure you got today's codes?"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
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Mk 1
- E5
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:21 am
- Location: Silicon Valley, CA
As the pictorial evidence on this site will witness, I've had the opportunity to do some gaming on absolutely GREAT terrain. Thunder, and particularly CGErickson, have made terrain boards that are just wonderful. It does indeed make the games a visual treat.I think that what FMJ,binpicker,and T Stockton brought up about terrain holds true. You need to have a "wonderful" presentation,to lure in the new. My last micro armour game has the quick change terrain- functional-but not as "pretty". ...
That said, I don't think we should go overboard on this issue. Great terrain boards are wonderful. They are much like the icing on the cake. But I happen to like a variety of cakes that are NOT frosted too.
I had no trouble filling up my Kursk game at a con last year. In fact I was over-subscribed. This was the first time, in over 30 years of playing micro-armor, that I had GM'd a game at a con! As you may recall from the pics I posted here, it was a felt-cloth-over-cardboard-contours board with masking tape roads. The moment I started setting up my tables (it took 4 tables to set up my board) I started getting folks asking about what the game would be, and wanting to sign up. Fortunately I had organized my game with a couple of "overflow" positions available, because we sure used 'em.
The crew included three of my "regulars", but also four strangers, and if I recall correctly two or three of the strangers had never played micro-armor before. This whole team stayed at it from 5:00pm until 1:00am or so! A couple of them remarked that it was the best game they'd been in at the con.
We gave away a GHQ gift certificate for "the most heroic unit" in the game. It went to a complete newbie -- it was his first time playing microarmor. I'm just betting he has bought half an army by now, and he is probably reading these threads! Another fellow from my game immediately signed-up for Thunder's game the next day too, and now plans to join us for a game next Sunday (see my AAR thread).
Now in truth most of the players were adults. But we managed to get two high-schoolers, I think. There were also several spectators who watched large portions of the game and yacked away as if they were part of the gaming crew. A couple of these were high-schoolers too.
I think that if you want to attract new gamers, your priorities should be:
1) A well organized game. The more interesting, the better.
2) GHQ models -- make sure to use some variety. The better the paint jobs, the better. People really like to study well done miniatures.
3) Terrain features such as houses, trees, fields, walls, and field defenses. The more, the better.
4) Terrain boards. Love 'em. I really do. They promote everything else you've done from being "a game", to being "an immersive experience"!
So please, yes, let's have more of the marvelous terrain. I do love to play on it. But ... don't hesitate to organize a game just because you don't have the terrain! The cons are a wonderful place to get people interested in microarmor. Go on, put a good game together and take it out there!
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
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pmskaar
- E5
- Posts: 2173
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:45 am
Growing the Hobby
Tom and Mark thanks for your thoughts. I have been a model builder in my past life and have built and painted tanks, planes, and figures as well as getting into model railroading for a bit when I was in my early teens. I do enjoy the modeling aspect of the hobby and find that the terrain side of things is generally more relaxing than the effort required to paint the vehicles to decent standards but have fun with both. I am actually familiar with some of the terrain techniques of model railroaders and have taken the philosophy of the prettier the better.
Having said that there are practical considerations to consider as Mark has talked about. Sometimes we just have to bring what we have to the wargaming table and also consideration must be given to how much effort needs to be given in the presentation side of things vs. ease of play, setup time, and of course wear and tear on the miniatures. In the games I run not all my vehicles are painted to painting contest standards but are serviceable. I have acquired "used" GHQ Micro Armor from people that just needed to be oversprayed, blackwashed, drybrushed and ready in order to have what I need for the game. The more ** CENSORED ** part of me would love to make sure everything is perfect but practically speaking it is not always possible to do that. I do strive for that goal in my efforts but balance it with the fact that these miniatures will be used by strangers in some cases so I have a short class on the proper handliing of micro armor before a game for those that are new. It keeps the barrels from getting bent and grease stains on the paint job after someone just had some French Fries.
Practically speaking whatever works to get people interested is positive. A well organized and fun gaming experience is a step in the right direction.
Pete - Binpicker, Out!
Having said that there are practical considerations to consider as Mark has talked about. Sometimes we just have to bring what we have to the wargaming table and also consideration must be given to how much effort needs to be given in the presentation side of things vs. ease of play, setup time, and of course wear and tear on the miniatures. In the games I run not all my vehicles are painted to painting contest standards but are serviceable. I have acquired "used" GHQ Micro Armor from people that just needed to be oversprayed, blackwashed, drybrushed and ready in order to have what I need for the game. The more ** CENSORED ** part of me would love to make sure everything is perfect but practically speaking it is not always possible to do that. I do strive for that goal in my efforts but balance it with the fact that these miniatures will be used by strangers in some cases so I have a short class on the proper handliing of micro armor before a game for those that are new. It keeps the barrels from getting bent and grease stains on the paint job after someone just had some French Fries.
Practically speaking whatever works to get people interested is positive. A well organized and fun gaming experience is a step in the right direction.
Pete - Binpicker, Out!
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atiff
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Many good thoughts in all these posts. I've picked up a few other ideas from other gamers and sources over the years, so just to share:
For attracting gamers:
- As you say, visual attractiveness is a key. But like most of us, they'll look at figures from about half a meter away in general. Making sure the units look like units (and not like a gypsy caravan) is more important than whether or not your intantry have their eyes painted.
- Refer to what they know. Find out a bit about them, and then refer to their existing knowledge. Don't know what a T-34 is? It's kinda like a Leman Russ tank. See that Pz II? It's like a landspeeder. Who do you think will win?
- Make it easy for them to join. Have reserve commands (NOTE: these are not necessarily reinforcement commands) that means anyone can be inserted into a game at any time. Good examples include things like letting the new addition take over half an existing command, or say "the old CO got shot, these are yours now!" and have the gaming vet you just replaced take the newly-arrived reserve.
- Keep them active. Don't give them the static defensive command. Give the the attackers, or the counterattackers. Get them moving and shooting ASAP. One of the best ideas I have heard run at a Con is to have the referee run a pre-programmed defensive position, while the players take sections of the attacking forces and try to overcome it. They work together to beat the ref (God) up - it's a bit like a computer game.
- Make it fun and exciting - and let them win! Give them the T-34s vs the Pz IIIs, the Panthers vs the Shermans. Let them enjoy their time and they'll come back.
For running games:
- Don't run drawn-out setup games for newbies - things such as airdrops, coastal landings, naval/prep barrages and recon missions aren't the most fun for someone new to a game to wait on you setting up. Too many times I hear "It was a fun game that was set up at 2:00 and we started moving at 3:30...." If you want to run these sort of games, start with everything worked out and predeployed - start with the figures on the beach with casualties already removed, or scattered over the board, or 6" from the first ATG having just spotted it, and get straight into it.
- For the vets, trick them with the setup. Many historical games become less satisfying because one or both sides know "how things went". How many German Co's go into a Kursk game expecting the counerattacks? Or how many Arras Allied Co's are looking out for the 88s? So trick them. One report I heard of was a game involving Napoleonic armies with one side attacking another in a horseshoe defense, anchored on hills at the left, and needing to breach the lines before the defenders called up their numerically superior reserves. None of the players figured out until after the game that they were playing Gettysburg with French and Russians.
Just some ideas - at least I think they are nice
For attracting gamers:
- As you say, visual attractiveness is a key. But like most of us, they'll look at figures from about half a meter away in general. Making sure the units look like units (and not like a gypsy caravan) is more important than whether or not your intantry have their eyes painted.
- Refer to what they know. Find out a bit about them, and then refer to their existing knowledge. Don't know what a T-34 is? It's kinda like a Leman Russ tank. See that Pz II? It's like a landspeeder. Who do you think will win?
- Make it easy for them to join. Have reserve commands (NOTE: these are not necessarily reinforcement commands) that means anyone can be inserted into a game at any time. Good examples include things like letting the new addition take over half an existing command, or say "the old CO got shot, these are yours now!" and have the gaming vet you just replaced take the newly-arrived reserve.
- Keep them active. Don't give them the static defensive command. Give the the attackers, or the counterattackers. Get them moving and shooting ASAP. One of the best ideas I have heard run at a Con is to have the referee run a pre-programmed defensive position, while the players take sections of the attacking forces and try to overcome it. They work together to beat the ref (God) up - it's a bit like a computer game.
- Make it fun and exciting - and let them win! Give them the T-34s vs the Pz IIIs, the Panthers vs the Shermans. Let them enjoy their time and they'll come back.
For running games:
- Don't run drawn-out setup games for newbies - things such as airdrops, coastal landings, naval/prep barrages and recon missions aren't the most fun for someone new to a game to wait on you setting up. Too many times I hear "It was a fun game that was set up at 2:00 and we started moving at 3:30...." If you want to run these sort of games, start with everything worked out and predeployed - start with the figures on the beach with casualties already removed, or scattered over the board, or 6" from the first ATG having just spotted it, and get straight into it.
- For the vets, trick them with the setup. Many historical games become less satisfying because one or both sides know "how things went". How many German Co's go into a Kursk game expecting the counerattacks? Or how many Arras Allied Co's are looking out for the 88s? So trick them. One report I heard of was a game involving Napoleonic armies with one side attacking another in a horseshoe defense, anchored on hills at the left, and needing to breach the lines before the defenders called up their numerically superior reserves. None of the players figured out until after the game that they were playing Gettysburg with French and Russians.
Just some ideas - at least I think they are nice
Cheers
Andrew Tiffany
Andrew Tiffany
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pmskaar
- E5
- Posts: 2173
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:45 am
Growing the Hobby
Atiff - Excellent thoughts in an excellent post. How many gamers do you have there in Taiwan by the way? Are there lots of GHQ players?
On a somewhat different note. Is there anyone here on this forum that knows what happened to The War Room hobby shop in the Atlanta area? I have visited every year when I have work in the Atlanta area and last year the place was closed down. Did they move or close up for good? I was just curious and would appreciate any input as I am going again soon.
Pete - Binpicker, Out!
On a somewhat different note. Is there anyone here on this forum that knows what happened to The War Room hobby shop in the Atlanta area? I have visited every year when I have work in the Atlanta area and last year the place was closed down. Did they move or close up for good? I was just curious and would appreciate any input as I am going again soon.
Pete - Binpicker, Out!
-
atiff
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Gamers in Taiwan are about as rare as white-girl-Taiwan-guy couples - hen's teeth are numerous by comparison. Nevertheless, it doesn't stop me buying and painting! Coming from a family of tradesman, I have the "hands-on" itch that needs to be scratched regularly.
All my gaming experience was built up in my 20's in New Zealand (I'm 33 now). My best mate is running a shop in NZ, and shares some of his winning ideas as he develops his market.
Actually, we are both role-palyers as well, and the same kind of rules apply to getting people into that hobby too.
All my gaming experience was built up in my 20's in New Zealand (I'm 33 now). My best mate is running a shop in NZ, and shares some of his winning ideas as he develops his market.
Actually, we are both role-palyers as well, and the same kind of rules apply to getting people into that hobby too.
Cheers
Andrew Tiffany
Andrew Tiffany