Another New Guy

[rangerguy]

Hey everyone

I'm new to the hobby but I've been lurking on the boards reading some things over and have gotten a few of my buddies to start WW2 gaming. We all have some experience in 40k but historicals are new to us.

I have the GHQ ruleset and 5 each of stuarts and pz3 f/gs and am interested in the tunisia campaign. I was wondering what everyone thoughts are as to where I should go in terms of expansion. I think I'm going to be the US and my friend the Germans. Has anyone ever fielded a Cav Squadron with the GHQ rules? Any imput is very appreciated.

[kgpanzer]

Ranger Guy...

there is plenty of internet locations that tell you the TO&E of what you all are going to build....depending on your funds and how far you want to go with it....there is a thread on here that shows a yahoo group that gives you

Thanks
Ar

[rangerguy]

thanks kgpanzer!

I have been looking around and wondering how tank destroyers were deployed in tunisia. I know the M3 GMC halftrack was used from the beginning but how were these deployed on the line? Were they attached to units in company size or what? Also, when were the M10s first deployed? I have read that they were used at the Battle of El Guitar but I'm not quite sure what units used them or how long they had been used.

thanks in advance

[jb]

thanks kgpanzer!

I have been looking around and wondering how tank destroyers were deployed in tunisia. I know the M3 GMC halftrack was used from the beginning but how were these deployed on the line? Were they attached to units in company size or what? Also, when were the M10s first deployed? I have read that they were used at the Battle of El Guitar but I'm not quite sure what units used them or how long they had been used.

thanks in advance

...I found the following on the Tank Destroyer sight.I was surprised to learn of the M10 being used in Africa


VALOR- VICTORY- VANISHED

THE UNITED STATES ARMY’S RESPONSE TO DESTROY ENEMY ARMOR
ON EACH OF THE BATTLEFIELDS OF THE WORLD WIDE CAMPAIGNS.
INITIATED 1941. BY ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF GENERAL GEORGE C. MARSHALL.
DEVELOPED BY ARMY GROUND FORCES GENERAL LESLIE J. McNAIR.
IMPLEMENTED BY GENERAL ANDREW D. BRUCE AT CAMP HOOD, TEXAS

1941 * ONE HUNDRED SIX BATTALIONS ACTIVATED * 1946


Background., On July 10, 1940, the War Department issued an order to establish the Armored Force, at Fort Knox, Ky. The Armored Division, as the main fighting unit, was organized to engage in fast moving offensive warfare: breakthrough to the enemy-rear… using the combined arms concept. Implemented expertly by General George Patton.

The mission to destroy enemy tanks was left to anti-tank units, the Field Artillery and the U.S. Army Air Corp. The M4 Sherman, the basic tank battalion weapon in 1943-45 was armed with the short-barreled 75MM field gun. The M4 was no match against the German tanks thick armor, high velocity, flat trajectory, long barreled 75MM and 88MM guns.

Call to Arms. On November 27, 1941 the War Department activated The ‘Tank Destroyer Force to carry out the mission to SEEK, STRIKE AND DESTROY enemy tanks in defensive and offensive action. Tank Destroyer Battalions entered combat in the Tunisian Campaign in November 1942 equipped with the expedient 75MM Gun Motor Carriage M3 (Half­track). The M3 was phased out as the campaign ended in Tunisia, North Africa, in 1943.

In the Homeric Battle of El Guettar, Tunisia, March 1943, the new full-tracked M10 Tank Destroyer saw baptism of fire, with an open turret, armed with a high powered, long barrel 3 inch gun to challenge the German panzers.

A new full tracked vehicle, the M18 “Hellcatâ€￾, designed from the ground up as a Tank Destroyer, armed with a high velocity 76MM gun was the fastest armored fighting vehicle in World War II. The “Hellcatâ€￾ first saw action in Italy in June 1944,. and was in combat until the end of the war.

The M6 3â€￾ AT Gun with Prime Mover M3A1 Halftrack, a high velocity anti-tank gun was mounted on a split trailed carriage (modified from the 105 howitzer), with a sloped armor shield. Weighing in at 5,850 lb. the 3â€￾ gun required careful coordination and teamwork to operate and maneuver. It’s gun crew consisted of a Gun Commander, a Gunner, a Driver, and seven Cannoneers. 27 Towed Battalions were employed in the ETO. All but four were converted to Self-Propelled TD Battalions by March/April 1945.



By 1942 the U.S. Army Ordnance Bureau took action to strengthen the firepower of the Tank Destroyers to meet the challenge of the expected mass employment of the superior German tanks, which the Americans would encounter after the Normandy invasion. Toward the end of the M10 production, a new, more potent 90MM cannon was developed to mount on the hulls of the M10 TD. In September 1944, the M36 Tank Destroyer reached the front and proved to be the only American armored fighting vehicle that could match the heavier German tanks in firepower. (1400 of the famous M36 Jacksons fought in Europe.)

The Tank Destroyer Force of WWII was organized into Groups, Brigades and Battalions. Each battalion was composed of 36 Tank Destroyers. A total of 70 battalions were deployed overseas. The basic combat operations concept was to support each Infantry and each Armored Division with one TD Bn. Wartime strength was about 100,000 TD men.

The Tank Destroyers knocked out approximately 2,600 German Armored Track Vehicles, including 300 in the Battle of the Bulge.. with an estimated sacrifice of 5,000 Tank Destroyer Men killed in action. The key Tank Destroyer contribution was helping the United States Army conquer the fear of the panzer and gain confidence to meet the challenge of the German blitzkrieg

Farewell to Arms. A turning point in the future role of the Tank Destroyers occurred at the Remagen Bridgehead on March 7, 1945. The M26 Pershing Tank Platoon, 14th Tank Bn, 9th Armored Division, armed with the 90MM gun, burst into combat action. A group of high ranking general officers, including General Patton, had been advocating the abolishment of the Tank Destroyer Force as far back as 1943. The main argument was that the Tank Destroyer Force had not accomplished the mission of massing to defeat the German panzers, except at the Battle of El Guettar, Tunisia when the 899th TD Bn joined the 601St TD Bn and stopped Gen Rommel’s 10th Panzer Division. The Germans failed to mount a blitzkrieg due to the heavy tank losses in Russia And Allied control of the air space over the battle field, until the Battle of the Bulge. Hitler assembled 2,100 tanks and assault guns for the Ardennes blitzkrieg. The 25 Tank Destroyer Battalions were too spread out over the 80-mile front to mass according to Tank Destroyer doctrine of defense of the blitzkrieg...

[Mk 1]

rangerguy asked:
I have been looking around and wondering how tank destroyers were deployed in tunisia. I know the M3 GMC halftrack was used from the beginning but how were these deployed on the line? Were they attached to units in company size or what? Also, when were the M10s first deployed? I have read that they were used at the Battle of El Guitar but I'm not quite sure what units used them or how long they had been used.

The TD theory was to keep them concentrated. Unfortunately for the TD crewmen, since the highest level of command in TDs was typically battalion, they were overruled all the time, and the battalions were often broken up and parcelled out. Typically attachements were companies, rather than platoons, though, as at this time the U.S. Army almost never built mixed company-sized teams.

The TD battalions enterred Tunisia with the M3 GMC and the M6 GMC, in "heavy" and "light" TD companies. As early as the Torch landings against the French the M6 was seen as a failure in action, and in Tunisia M6s was dropped as fast as anything could be found to replace/re-equip the units.

The M10 enterred the theater with newly arriving units that were fully equipped. It did not come in to existing/deployed units as a replacement/upgrade vehicle. The first M10-equipped TD battalions started arriving in Algeria at the end of 1942, but didn't get in to Tunisia, and into action, until about mid-way through the spring of 1943.

The primary action at El Guettar was fought by the 601st TD Battalion. They were mounted in M3 GMCs. They pretty much saved the 1st Infantry Division's bacon. The cost was very high, though, with almost 100% losses in vehicles. The 776th also saw some action. They were mounted in M10 GMCs.

Or so I recall. No sources before me at the moment. I'll try to double-check my recollections over the course of the day tomorrow.

[Mk 1]

So, I did check up with my sources.

Harry Yiedes' exceptional book "The Tank Killers" gives an excellent account of the tank destroyers in action at El Guettar, describing the action company-by-company, often by platoon, and sometimes even by vehicle or crewman. But the very thoroughness of this work makes it perhaps too long for my purpose here.

So I turn instead to Atkinson's excellent book, "An Army at Dawn".

The seen picks up a couple days after the 1st Infantry Division, commanded by Terry Allen, with a real character, Ted Roosevelt (cousin or nephew? of the President), as his 2IC, has taken El Guettar on the road from Gafsa in the central mountains to Gabes on the coast. By standing down a road that leads to the coast, they threaten to cut off the Afrika Korps at the Mareth Line from Von Arnim's Corps in Tunisia. So as the Americans, with three infantry regiments dug in on a ridge, are preparing to cointinue their own offensive, the Afrika Korps rushes the 10th Panzer Division in to do a "spoiling" attack.

Not far from Roosevelt's perch, the 601st Tank Destroyer Battalion anchored the segment of American line overlooking the road. Thirty panzers struck so quickly that one company buckled and fell back with heavy losses while another, also mauled, fought until its ammunition racks were empty. German tanks poured into the gap and had nearly broken through to turn the American flank with Company A opened fire at 2,200 yards; the 75mm volley staggered the panzers, which veered south only to mire in boggy ground and a minefield along a dry lake bed. Fire intensified from both the tank destroyers and Allen's artillery. ... By midmorning the panzers had seen enough of the gap the Americans now called Death Valley. ...

Twenty-four of thirty-six guns from the 601st were lost. Collectively, the battalion had fired nearly 3,000 75mm shells and almost 50,000 machine-gun rounds. The unit commander ... survived to notify Allen that his battalion no longer existed. Lost too, were seven new M-10 guns from the 899th Tank Destroyer Battalion, which rushed into battle from Gafsa only to be ambushed on the valley floor at ten A.M. ("Gallant but green," Roosevelt commented after watching the sally). Yet the 10th Panzer had been cut up even worse. American artillery, tank destroyers, and mines knocked out thirty-seven enemy tanks ... (out of fifty-seven tanks that 10th Panzer reported as operational that day -Mk1). The enemy retreated eastward to regroup. American soldiers huzzahed themselves hoarse.

So, while I didn't have all the detail fixed in mind, I had it pretty much correct for the 601st, except for the casualty rate. (My memory served me in that the unit was hors de combat, but they evedently lost fewer tracks than I had recalled.)

But I fumbled on the M-10 unit. It was the 899th, not the 776th. Never trust a dyslexic who is away from his sources...

[rangerguy]

Thanks guys! I think that maybe trying the battle of el guetter as a first scenario is a bit over the top, but maybe one day I'll try it out.

[chriskrum]

More information about than you can use at this stage but well worth a look is the "Race for Tunis" campaign for Command Decision. It' has OB for all the major combatants and they're at the same scale as GHQs rules (1 model = 1 platoon).

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ga ... index.html

[Mk 1]

That "rangerguy" said:
Thanks guys! I think that maybe trying the battle of el guetter as a first scenario is a bit over the top, but maybe one day I'll try it out.

I have a scenario about 80% worked-up for a smaller scale historical clash in Tunisia. A pretty interesting battle, mostly armor, that I've found some good info on. Without revealing more, it would involve at least some of the unit types you've already mentioned as being in your budding collection. But others would need to be added. That's the h3ll of this hobby, there is ALWAYS more that you want / need to have!

I've completed the research, and got the OOBs and maps. Just need to finish up the commanders' orders for both sides and the game master's instructions. (Note: In my gaming, the game master is usually one of the players. I don't usually play with a seperate "inactive" GM.)

I'd be happy to toss you as much as I have if you'd like. Or maybe if you push and prod me a bit, I might finish it up ... sometime ...


[Added on edit:]
P.S.

If you are indeed interested in gaming Tunisia, Thunder's website has two sets of pictures of a Tunisian battle we ran at my house last year.
http://www.microarmor.com/images/Micro_ ... index.html <-- Pictures HE took
http://www.microarmor.com/images/Africa2/index.html <-- Pictures I took

Unfortunately there is no AAR narrative to go with the pics. You can find a bit of narrative, primarily of the final stages of the game, on page 3 of our ongoing microarmor wargaming thread on TankNet:
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?sh ... 8454&st=40

Oh, and since we're on the topic of Tunisia gaming ...

HEY GUYS - THE NEW EARLY-WAR M4A1s ARE OUT!


Ooooooo. Sure looks yummy! Gotta go get me a few dozen. Maybe more. After all, ya can't have TOO MANY Shermans. Even IF there aren't any Panthers around. ...