New 47 mm Hungarian ATG

[ACWBill]

I am looking at this model online and noticed that it appears very similar in layout to the 75mm Mountain Howitzer used by the Falschirmjagers on Crete. I wonder if the size is similar. I have several books on the subject and will take a look tonight. If they are as close as I think, I intend to do so. Any opinions?

[RoughRIder]

I too have been looking at this model. From what i have seen on the net, it is close to appearance to the French 47mm A.T gun. I also would love to hear any opions.

[Mobius]

Those 47mm guns all had a common design. Though I think the Itailian one didn't have shield while the Hungarian did.

[Mk 1]

From what i have seen on the net, it is close to appearance to the French 47mm A.T gun.

Those 47mm guns all had a common design.

No no NO No no.*

The "common" design was the Austrian Bohler, which was bought by the Dutch, Italians (who also produced it under license), and Romanians, and also wound up serving with the Germans in some numbers.

The Skoda gun, a Czech design, was entirely different. Used by the Hungarians, and by the Germans in larger numbers than the Bohler, mostly for PzJgr I and for fixed fortifications.

Bohler was a relatively short barrel, on a light carriage (usually without a shield, but some versions had a gun shield), with a the recuperator below the barrel.

The Skoda gun was longer, had a muzzle break, a shield, and most notably had the recuperator above the barrel.

The French 47mm Mle 39 was another beast altogether. Significantly larger, longer, and more powerful. In the class of the German PaK38.

Not the same look at all. Except maybe the Czech and the French both had large archaic-looking wheels, while the Bohler had more modern looking wheel/tires.

Nope. Not the same at all.

-Mark 1

*Unless its maybe...?
Could be wrong. Been known to happen in the past. Not at all beyond the realm of reasonable possibilities. Corrections welcome, am willing to learn from my mistakes. Take a number, the line forms to the left.

[jb]

From what i have seen on the net, it is close to appearance to the French 47mm A.T gun.

Those 47mm guns all had a common design.

No no NO No no.*

The "common" design was the Austrian Bohler, which was bought by the Dutch, Italians (who also produced it under license), and Romanians, and also wound up serving with the Germans in some numbers.

The Skoda gun, a Czech design, was entirely different. Used by the Hungarians, and by the Germans in larger numbers than the Bohler, mostly for PzJgr I and for fixed fortifications.

Bohler was a relatively short barrel, on a light carriage (usually without a shield, but some versions had a gun shield), with a the recuperator below the barrel.

The Skoda gun was longer, had a muzzle break, a shield, and most notably had the recuperator above the barrel.

The French 47mm Mle 39 was another beast altogether. Significantly larger, longer, and more powerful. In the class of the German PaK38.

Not the same look at all. Except maybe the Czech and the French both had large archaic-looking wheels, while the Bohler had more modern looking wheel/tires.

Nope. Not the same at all.

-Mark 1

*Unless its maybe...?
Could be wrong. Been known to happen in the past. Not at all beyond the realm of reasonable possibilities. Corrections welcome, am willing to learn from my mistakes. Take a number, the line forms to the left.

Mk1 you simply amaze me with the knowledge you have about all these (should I say ) obscure peices of military hardware

[Mobius]

Wait a minute. Hungarian 47mm? I meant the Romanian 47mm. I don't have any records for a Hungarian 47mm. Maybe a 40mm.
The 40mm 40.M was the standard towed anti-tank gun produced by the Hungarian company Manfred Weisz AG (MAWAG). It was also a tank gun.

If Hungary was using any 47mm guns they could come from anywhere.
They had purchased some 47mm Bohler anti-tank gun model 1935.
The Germans also gave them some captured Belgian 47mm guns.
And if they got some from the Czech it would be a third source.
.

[Mk 1]

Mobius mentioned:
The 40mm 40.M was the standard towed anti-tank gun produced by the Hungarian company Manfred Weisz AG (MAWAG). It was also a tank gun.

If Hungary was using any 47mm guns they could come from anywhere. ... if they got some from the Czech it would be a third source.

I think they did indeed operate a fair number of Skoda (Czech) 47mm AT guns. GHQ has just issued their new model of it for the Hungarian line (which if you all haven't yet gone to see, well what the .... you waiting for?). Looks pretty nice.

However, Mobius, I think you are indeed correct that the 40.M would have probably been more common. But we don't need a new model for that, the German Pak35/36 should serve just fine, as the 40.M was nothing more than a Rheinmetal gun carriage with a new 40mm barrel.

[BattlerBritain]

I've actually got a 47mm brass shell case with an Eagle stamped on the bottom of it and a date of 1940 stamped on it.

It was presented to me when I left a place where I worked on tanks (Chertsey, near Chobham).

I've a feeling that it was 'retrieved' from a PzJgr1in North Africa maybe?

Anyone else like to hazard a guess if this is right?

[ACWBill]

OK, what about my original question. Anybody......Bueller.....Bueller?

[Mk 1]

Byline: BattlerBritain
I've actually got a 47mm brass shell case with an Eagle stamped on the bottom of it and a date of 1940 stamped on it. ...

I've a feeling that it was 'retrieved' from a PzJgr1in North Africa maybe?

Anyone else like to hazard a guess if this is right?

Does it look like any of these:

For reference, the 37mm on the far left is the French round used by the R35 and H35 tanks. Not much use against armor. The third from left, 37mm x 249, is the German 37mm used by the Pak36. The big 40mm x 304 is the British 2-pdr, a very capable round at this calibre. 47mm x 195, the short one with no projectile, is the cartridge for the 47mm Bohler gun, as used by the Italians for both an AT gun and a tank gun (in the M13 and M14), and by the Romanians. Next to that is the Russian 45mm x 310, a very respectable AT round (once the manufacturing quality issues were resolved), and last is the French 47mm x 193, as used by the SA34/35 gun in the French S-35 and Char-B tanks.

This picture is from the excellent website on cannons and ammunition put together by Tony Williams: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

I highly recommend his books. Very thoroughly researched, and well written. He's also a pretty nice guy. Unfortunately I could not find any specific reference to a picture of the Skoda 47mm round. But he has a forum on his site where he entertains any question about cannon cartridges, and if you take a picture or two of the cartridge I'm sure he'd love to see it.

[ACWBill]

Sorry Mk1, I see the big red X in the message field.

[Mk 1]

ACWBill offered:
Sorry Mk1, I see the big red X in the message field.

Looks fine to me.

You are clearly a force for channelling web gremlins (or daemons?).

But in any case, if you and others can't see the image I referred to above, you can open up the link to it here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tank1.jpg

As I said, I do recommend Tony's site and his books. He has what is probably the most complete collection of cannon-caliber cartridges in the world.

By way of further example, here is his collection of 37mm to 57mm cartridges:


(That's at: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Collection2.jpg for the gremlin-channellers...)

If you want to know about small-arms, MG, and cannon rounds, he's the guy.

[Pitfall]

How does he get access to that kind of stuff in the UK? I always thought that restrictions on firearms were pretty tight over there.

[BattlerBritain]

Blimey Mk1 - a few to choose from.

I'll see if I can take a picture of it over the weekend, but in shape it looks a bit like the 40x304R.

Thanks for the links as well - some stuff there!

Cheers,

Battler.