Russian numbers

[fullmetaljacket]

Just a quick question did most russian tanks in WW2 just have the tactical numbers on one side of the turret. I have seen several phots that looks that way just wondering, before i start putting the numbers on my T-34 Brigade.

FMJ

[Mk 1]

fullmetaljacket asked:
Just a quick question did most russian tanks in WW2 just have the tactical numbers on one side of the turret. I have seen several phots that looks that way just wondering, before i start putting the numbers on my T-34 Brigade.

"Most" Russian tanks in WW2 were green.

That's about as much as can be said for standardization of painting/marking.

That green was sometimes overpainted with diagonal earth-red stripes to form camo patterning. Or black diagonal stripes. Or whitewashed in the winter. Sometimes with vertical lines to simulate bare tree trunks, or checkerboard patterns of whitewash and no whitewash to break up the outline.

Or not.

Tactical markings were all over the board. Diamond shapes were popular, as that was the map symbol for a tank formation. Yet there are many pictures of tanks with squares as well, and some with triangles. These symbols had some content inside them ... sometimes one row, sometimes two rows seperated by a horizontal line. The content was numbers, unless it was letters.

Or not.

Sometimes tanks had two digit tactical numbers. Sometimes three. Sometimes four. Most often in white. Or red with white outline. Or black. Or yellow. I've even seen blue.

Or none.

The tactical symbols and/or numbers were placed on both turret sides. Symbols in front of numbers. Or numbers in front of symbols. Or it was on the turret back. Or the rear hull.

Or not.

Air recognition was generally a white cross, fore/aft and left/right across the turret top. Unless it was only a left-right line (with no cross). Or yellow (cross or line). Or a solid red triangle. Or a solid red circle. Occasionally a red star. Sometimes with white outline. Generally on the turret roof, front-center. Unless it was on one of the hatches.

Or none.

For a nation that drove standardized production to the extreme during the war, there was a bewildering variety of tank markings. The most famous of markings, the patriotic slogans, were generally done at the brigade level or below. From late 1942 onward tactical markings (symbols and numbers) were most often determined at the corps level for all of the brigades in the corps. There were a LOT of corps. And any individual corps might change their marking scheme from one campaign to the next.

So ...

Mark 'em however you want. You are guaranteed to be wrong for every unit/timeframe save one. But you'll be in the right spirit of randomization.

[tstockton]

Mk I

I gotta give you your "props"... that was one of the most clear, concise, and exacting answers to a question I have ever read! Absolutely outstanding!!

____ ____ ____ ____ ____

(three platoons and a leader...)

Actually, your last paragraph says it best... but the "set up" was tremendous!

Regards,
Tom

[pmskaar]

I agree with Mk1 here. There was no standardization in Russian numbering. It depended on the unit and during which operation or period of the war. During summer when Soviet tanks sported the green paint white letters seem to be more typical from what I can tell from various pictures and illustrations. Sometimes red was used as well but it appears that was not as common. As far as other colors go for markings there may have been others but the 2 above seem to be much more common especially white.
Soviet tanks in winter were often but not always whitewashed. It was then more common to go to red letters over the whitewash but of course this is not universal. There may have been other colors as well.
No definite pattern for the patriotic slogans either. In some cases, if the unit was "purchased" by say a collective farm, then that farm may have been recognized in the slogan such as "From the workers of Kiev" for instance. Often the slogans were very individualized as well such as a name of a Russian folk hero or "Kill the Fascist Vipers!" Some tanks had no markings at all from photos.
I did a T-34 85 battalion back in 2001 for the photo on the cover of GHQ's T-34 85 battalion. I chose the 10th Guards Tank Corps with the "bar code" under the dashed number because I liked the look. It is also easy to determine by that numbering system which company is which and which battalion and brigade is which, another reason I chose it. I'm not sure if this was a system developed before 1944 however as I don't see anything similar from 1942 or 1943. My philosophy for doing my markings is to do a typical unit of something rather than try to depict an exact unit at an exact period of the war. With the Russians I think you have a lot of room for variety and unless there is some expert out there that knows every Russian unit and what markings each had for each operation then I don't think you will be wrong.
By the way, I'm doing a Russian assault gun unit right now. Does anyone know how these were numbered? I see pictures of say an ISU 152 with the number 63 on the side. How were the others numbered within the 21 vehicle unit. These were in 4 batteries of 5 vehicles with an HQ. Where did the numbers start and where did they end?
I hope my expanation helps.

Pete - Binpicker, Out!

[DrBig]

Yes indeed, no standardization. The Red Army had loads of Tank Brigades, & each probably had it's own system, not unlike the current US Army units in Iraq.

One point though: Given that Cyrillic is Greek to most of us here...there were 2 types of patriotic lettering on tanks.

1) was the classic patriotic slogan, which would be unique to a given tank

2) A worker's name. All of the tanks of the unit dedicated to that worker would bear that exact same workers name. For example, If Mr. Pavlov was an inspiration to the factory workers, then each tank produced in that lot, going to the same unit, would bear his name. Same spelling, pattern, etc. How this all matters in 1/285 is beyond me.

[jb]

... I find all of the above true with all the above said,through books,and pictures over the decades. My conclusion is that I mark mine so "I" can identify them on the battlefield.So I use the western approach, i.e. 1st didgit= co,second digit=platoon,and the third=individual vehicle. I use an individual numeral of "1" as a platoon leader,a "0" as company commander,and a series of "1"s and "0"s for higher command.
I use the GHQ German white numerals for this. I think they look OK...
I have used the GHQ Soviet numerals with the "bar" ID trimmed off,but in doing so you need to ID the "leader" tanks somehow.One way I do this is to use a small metal base to mount the vehicle on,and in turn attach a tag with info like Unit,vehicle ID,game Skill rating,etc..
Another way to ID the "lead" vehicles is to add antennae,or cupolas if applicable..
following are pics of the GHQ soviet numerals with the Bar codes cut off.
Also to note,if you mount the turrets with the "magnet" method you may attach the whole vehicle to any metal base. In this fashion you may go baseless with you vehicles also...

[tstockton]

DrBig,

How this all matters in 1/285 is beyond me.

I'm not sure of the tone of your statement, but given the overall tone of this message board, I am going to assume it was somewhat "tounge in cheek"...

My first thought is because we usually strive for a degree of realism in our modeling projects -- unless one is modeling a fantasy subject, and I've seen plenty of "hand-wringing" and "jaw-gnashing" over the "accuracy" of a model in that genre, too! The questions about numbering, slogans, colors, etc., are valid because we want to finish our models to be an accurate-as-possible representation of a "real" object -- in this case, Russian armor during World War II.

On the lighter side, however... give the "small" nature of our chosen scale -- indeed, how much it matters is also a good question, given how difficult it is for our eyes (aging though they may be) to see some of that stuff!!

Anyway, my two cents worth... and I'm still working on my first Pepsi of the morning... gotta get my caffeine with some carbonization, to help settle the ol' stomach!

Regards,
Tom Stockton

[DrBig]

what I meant was given the size of lettering in a patriotic slogan or workers name, even if you could read Cyrillic, it wouldn't matter if you 'followed the rules' because you couldn't read it anyway. I wasn't arguing against putting slogans/names on tanks....just not religously adhering to the doctirne I wrote down dinstinguishing the two different types

[Mk 1]

DrBig mentioned:
what I meant was given the size of lettering in a patriotic slogan or workers name, even if you could read Cyrillic, it wouldn't matter if you 'followed the rules' because you couldn't read it anyway.

N'er more true words were spoken (nor written, even in Cyrillic).


OK, who among you can tell me which tank is marked with "For the Motherland", and which is marked with "End Fascism"?

Hmmm?

I'm waiting....

I wasn't arguing against putting slogans/names on tanks....

Good thing, that.

I always get a good response with new gamers when my Soviet tanks with patriotic slogans come out on the game board.

[groundlber]

Mk1 (And all) I remember that "Za Rodino!" was the translation for "For the motherland! " I would still lose the challenge, I'm doing good to notice there's something painted on the side of the turret.
On a more serious note, I prefer using actual units as models for my wargaming units, it gives them some personality. My P-51 Mustangs have bright red tails and spinners in honor of the Tuskeegee airmen. I had the privelege to meet one of the pilots a couple of years ago.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Groundlber

[BlackDragon]

john where do you get your bases?

[jb]

john where do you get your bases?

...the Last square... lastsquare.com