Israeli armor

[Atticus]

Do the israelis use or did they ever use british Chieftan tanks? And also speaking of israeli armor, does anyone know of any rule sets which incorporate the new TROPHY active defense system? It's similar to the Russian Arena protection system. If you dont know what it is, it's an Israeli designed countermeasures system for tanks and apcs that will fire a projectile at incoming explosive munitions.

[jb]

Do the israelis use or did they ever use british Chieftan tanks? And also speaking of israeli armor, does anyone know of any rule sets which incorporate the new TROPHY active defense system? It's similar to the Russian Arena protection system. If you dont know what it is, it's an Israeli designed countermeasures system for tanks and apcs that will fire a projectile at incoming explosive munitions.

I've been reading up on that system. It seems that it is not yet deployed and maybe not in the forseable future. It seems there are a lot of bugs,such as no reloads,colateral damage to friendlies and civilians if activated and within engagement range. Tanks that did go towards the Lebanese border 2006 didn't employ it as was planned probably due to the reasons mentioned and maybe others.
If you use rules for it take into account any collateral if applicable. Of course no reloads too.

[Mickel]

There were no Chieftains in Israeli service. IIRC, they rather liked them, particularly the thick armour. But weren't flavour of the month (decade?) at the Foreign Office, so weren't sold any.

Mike

[BattlerBritain]

I did read in an old 'Born-in-Battle' magazine that the Israeli's were trialling a couple of Chieftains in '67 (I think) near the Israeli border and when things kicked off the Brits got a bit worried.

The Israeli's just replied "It's OK - we just moved the border!".

[ShortRound70]

BattlerBritain and Mickel are both correct. The IDF was interested in the Chieftain, but chose the M-60A1 instead (for political and economic reasons). I think that the Jordanians were also interested in the Chieftain, but don't know if the ever purchased any. I'll have to do some digging on that.

[Mickel]

I think that the Jordanians were also interested in the Chieftain, but don't know if the ever purchased any.

They certainly did - the Khalid from 1981. Not sure on numbers.

Mike

[Michael E.]

IIRC, the Iranians also had bought some Chieftains back before their little disagreement with Iraq in the 80s. I don't know if any remain in service there.

[Mk 1]

IIRC, the Iranians also had bought some Chieftains back before their little disagreement with Iraq in the 80s. I don't know if any remain in service there.

Michael is correct.

The Iranians operated a fair number of Chieftains. They were bought during the Shah's reign (which still qualifies as "before their little disagreement with Iraq...").

All IIRC from this point... away from sources ... caveats apply:
The Iranians called the tank the Shir Iran (Lion of Iran). It was the Iranians who funded the development of armor upgrades for the Chieftain. The Stillbrew add-on was purchased by Iran for their Shir Iran tanks. The package that became the Challenger I (a considerable upgrade/redesign which used the Chieftain as its starting point) was initiated with an eye towards selling tanks to Iran, but by the time the tank was done Iran was no longer on the list of acceptable clients for the tank. So the British Army got a pretty good mount, that they might not otherwise have had.

The Shir Irans saw a fair bit of service during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraqi T-72 were reasonably common adversaries. They were reputedly not particularly strong on mobility nor reliability in the desert. But they were operated by some pretty professional troops (no Revolutionary Guards), and so managed a respectable service rate until later in the war (when wear and tear, without the spares, took its toll). Their armor, particularly with the upgrades, was still pretty impressive versus the first generation 125mm projectiles.

Or so I recall from my readings. Wasn't there myself. Not particularly a Chieftain buff, but like to keep up where/when I can.

[Harlan]

The Isreali were interested in buy the Cheiftain and participated in the development of the Cheiftain. Unfortunately for the Isreali, the British cancelled the sale due to political pressure. This forced Israel to shift is arms purchases from the UK to the US.

Chieftains were sold to Iran, Kuwait, Oman, and Jordan. It was supplied to one more country, but I do not remember which one.

[Fulcrum]

At that time, in 1966, Britain came forward with a dramatically historic proposal. The British needed money in order to complete the development of their new tank of the future, the Chieftain, with its 120mm cannon. This tank was designed to be the strongest and most modern in the west. In view of their financial constraints they proposed a "package deal". According to this deal, we would buy hundreds of obsolete Centurion tanks. They, in exchange, would allow us to participate in the final stages of Chieftain development, would sell us Chieftains, and would help us build, in Israel, an assembly line for Chieftains. This was seen as an ideal solution to the unacceptable predictions regarding the middle-eastern armor balance from both quantitative and qualitative points of view.

Our cooperation with the British lasted for about three years. Two prototypes of the Chieftain tank were delivered to Israel. Israel invested heavily in the improvement and final development of the Chieftain in close cooperation with British officers and engineers, who worked with us in Israel.

However, Arab states intervened. They threatened Britain with sanctions, with pulling their monetary reserves out of British banks, and other actions. Demonstrations were held in Arab capitals and British embassies were attacked. In November 1969 Britain withdrew from its Chieftain deal with Israel.

Too bad that would have been a very nasty tank in Israeli hands

[Atticus]

thanks for the replies guys. JB, i heard that Trophy was designed so that when it counters the incoming rpg/missile that there would be little to no splash damage, because one of the concerns was nearby friendly infantry. The system was mostly made for urban combat. General Dynamics is designing a similar system for use with US forces, I dont remember what it's called.

[DrBig]

To tie all the information together, 2 Chieftan Mk2's were in Israel at the outbreak of the 6 Day War. Britain demanded they not be used in combat, and testing continued after the war. In late 1968, Israel put forth an offer to buy in quantity, but in late 1969, Britain refused & sold to Arabs instead.