Rarity of various AFVs in 6 Days War / Yom Kippur

[thenorthman]

Maksim-Smelchak do you know off hand what gun they had on the AMX 13? Was it the 90mm or the 75mm....or a mix?

Thanks in advance!

Sean

[30YRSGHQ]

The AMX-13's were the 75mm version

[taskforce58]

For IDF M113, would GHQ # IS5 be correct? Or should it be the earlier "stock" version like # N3?

[thenorthman]

IS5 is the Zelda right? This vehicle was used basically in the 82' conflict to now. They had the regular M113 in around 72'; the Israeli's called it he Bardehlas, but it proved very dangerous for its occupants. Hence the upgraded Zelda.

I guess they called the original M-113 a nickname among there troops a "Zippo" since it seemed to catch fire every time it was hit.

Personaly I got both models. For when I do the Yom Kippur War (73') and the Lebanon war in 82'.

Sean

[DrBig]

I can only comment on the Yom Kippur War. The principal equipment is as follows:

Israelis

Centurion Shot
M48, M60, & M60A1 all with 105mm. M48s all refitted with Urdan cuppola. The Patton class only served in the Sinai
Super Sherman-reservists
Isherman-reservists
Ti67-reservists
Ground Support with Phantom II & Skyhawk
Primary mech infantry in M3 halftracks; M113 stock version less common;
Self Propelled AA would be M3HT with dual 20mm or 40mm. Can't remember which.
Jeep/105 Recoiless Rifle for recon
SP Arty in maneuver elements primarily M3 HT with 120mm? mortar
Airborne Infantry in Super Frelon & Sikorsky CH-53. HQ in Huey. No gunships

As you can see, Israel depended heavily on tanks & air power. Infantry & arty were quite overlooked, which is why Saggers & RPGs were so effective. IDF tanks did not have night vision. They relied on flares & ears.

Arabs

T-54/55 roughly 2/3rds of force-night vision
T-62 roughly 1/3rd of force-night vision
PT-76
Ground Support with Mig-17
Mech infantry in BMP-1, BTR-60PB; possibly BTR-152 too
Mobile Air Defense with Shilka; static Air Def with SAM batteries
MTU20 & 55 bridgelayers for the tank trench (Valley of Tears)
Airborne Commandos in Mi-8's, iirc
Loads & loads of towed arty. Don't recall much SP arty.

No helo gunships on either side, but the IDF was worried about Mi-8 coversions showing up. Good what-if.

Lots of cool equipment in YK, but there were only modest Arab goals. Basically to blitz & occupy the Golan & Sinai, get the conquered areas under the SAM umbrella ASAP, & dig in deeper than an Alabama tick. The Egyptian plan went well & the Sinai became secondary. The 'Oh Crap!' moment was the Syrian onslaught & buying time for the reservists to show up. IDF line almost broke in the south which would have opened up all of Northen Israel to occupation...hence the nukes.

Iraq & Jordan had different forces.

[DrBig]

Of course, technically, based on the odds, Israel should have lost in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968-70, and 1973, but they didn't.

Well, in '48 certainly. '56 & '67...I mean come on. 1956 was an attack by the UK, France & Israel on what was essentially a peasant army. 1967 was a mid east Barbarossa. I wouldn't call '73 a raving success either.

Funny how tankers are always for the Nazi's & Israeli's. Whodda thunk?

[Hugewally]

'73 - Israel also had M163 w/the 20mm Vulcan (though I'm not sure when they first got them).

Arab support aircraft would also have to include SU-7's for both Egypt & Syria. Possible but very rare would be Egyptian Tu-16 & Il-28 bombers (rare due to the low numbers involved). For Israel, you could also have Super Mystere , Mystere IV and Ouragan in the ground attack role. Rare would be the Vautour light bomber.

As for IR, the Israeli tank commanders had a hand held IR detector scope which would allow them to see the IR headlights and search lights of the enemy. TC's could them direct their gunners onto targets.

Also, the night of Oct 6th was a full moon and a clear sky.

[taskforce58]

Self Propelled AA would be M3HT with dual 20mm or 40mm. Can't remember which.

THAT one I know: The TMC-20, basically a standard M3HT with a Maxson turret at the back (standard M3 chassis, NOT the M16 MGMC), but instead of quad .50", it mounts a pair of 20mm cannons.

(I was working on a 3D computer model of the M3 and M16 last month, so I was quite familiar with it)

One thing about a M3HT variant I want to ask: Osprey's New Vanguard book on the M3 has a picture of M3 with SS11 ATGM mounted at the back. Does anyone know how common was this variant?

[Hugewally]

Of course, technically, based on the odds, Israel should have lost in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968-70, and 1973, but they didn't.

Well, in '48 certainly. '56 & '67...I mean come on. 1956 was an attack by the UK, France & Israel on what was essentially a peasant army. 1967 was a mid east Barbarossa. I wouldn't call '73 a raving success either.

Funny how tankers are always for the Nazi's & Israeli's. Whodda thunk?

'odds'... By shear numbers Israel has always been at the disadvantage.

In '73 i seem to recall that when the war stopped, Israel was both knocking on the door of Damascus and the other side of the Suez Canal. Israel won on the battlefield again, but is still paying the price on the political front...

[DrBig]

I'm not taking away any credit from the Israelis. I have read much on YK & am duly impressed...especially with the IAF taking on the SAMs. But it was pretty much a Pyrrhic victory.

[Mk 1]

Self Propelled AA would be M3HT with dual 20mm or 40mm. Can't remember which.

THAT one I know: The TMC-20, basically a standard M3HT with a Maxson turret at the back (standard M3 chassis, NOT the M16 MGMC), but instead of quad .50", it mounts a pair of 20mm cannons.

(I was working on a 3D computer model of the M3 and M16 last month, so I was quite familiar with it)

One thing about a M3HT variant I want to ask: Osprey's New Vanguard book on the M3 has a picture of M3 with SS11 ATGM mounted at the back. Does anyone know how common was this variant?

I have always understood that the primary HT in Israeli service was the M5, not the M3.


Mk 1 inspecting an Israeli HT, to verify that it was indeed an M5. (Purely academic research, as you can see.)

The M5 (and to lesser extent the nearly identical M9) were the primary HTs provided to US allies through the lend-lease program during WW2. It was these vehicles that the fledgeling IDF managed to acquire in the European surplus market in the 1950s.

Or so I have always understood.

[Mickel]

The M5 (and to lesser extent the nearly identical M9) were the primary HTs provided to US allies through the lend-lease program during WW2. It was these vehicles that the fledgeling IDF managed to acquire in the European surplus market in the 1950s.

Does this mean I have inadvertently started my US WWII armoured infantry, but have to go buy some more M-5s? Hate it when that happens...

[taskforce58]

Just take a file and round down those rear corners on the passenger compartment!

[30YRSGHQ]

Having spent most of 1987 in Israel (studying history at Tel Aviv University), I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the IDF had both M3 and M5/M9 halftracks - though from what I saw the M5/M9 was more prevalent. I don't think the M163 arrived until after YK war.

[Hugewally]

I remember pictures of M163s in the old Armies & Weapons magazine in their articles of the '73 war. I'll have to try and find it.