Help...

[kennerator]

So I have had no luck in finding any wargamers in Utah, so now I'm going to have to try to make some. Have a friend in mind who was big into warhammer..he is my only hope.
I need a shopping list of units (WWII, US & German) and some suggestions on a rule set.
I would like to do a meeting engagement with totaly equal forces. 1:1 ratio, I think...combined arms with a good varity of infantry, anti-tank, support etc. Not so much AT guns or onbard arty. Then again some Preists and Wesps might be kind of fun. Have no idea how they work in game, tell me what you guys think. Would like to keep costs to around $100. Don't want to invest to much in case my plan fails. The game itself I would like to keep to around 4 hours. Shooting for a lot of manoeuvre, something he can't really get in a game of warhammer.
Also need an idea of the size of game board I'll need. Already have lots of scenery from model railroading.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated as to what makes a fun game. thanks in advance. K

[Timothy OConnor]

Since he plays Warhammer already your first choice really should be Flames of War. The mechanics are virtually the same as Warhammer 40K and the tactics are truly the same. Like 40K FOW lacks overwatch/op-fire rules so stationary opponents sit politely and allow your units to move into LOS and then shoot the you-know-what out of them. It also has lots of sci-fi-like rules (eg teleportation, hover tanks, and space-warping ammo) so in that respect it also plays like 40K.

If a gamer knows little of real-world or historical tactics and tries to play a game that accurately represents modern tactics the experience can be disappointing and you may well lose a recruit. He goes from zooming all over the battlefield, shooting hapless stationary defenders, and fighting more melees than in an ancients battle to being slaughtered by enemies in overwatch since he'll know very little of fire and maneuver tactics (find-fix-etc...). FOW makes the transition from 40K/WH easier since it's basically 40K run-and-gun tourney-tactics with WWII figures (think of Germans as Space Marines and Russians as Orks and you'll be fine).

If he knows about 20th century tactics and dislikes 40K/FOW tactics in a 20th century context then try Fist Full of TOW's WWII variation (I think it's available from the FFT yahoo group.) FFT is clean and fast while also being represenational of 20th century tactics. The author even notes that he likes simple but realistic games and in many ways FFT is as clean as the older versions of 6mm Space Marine. Those rules also rewarded "historical" tactics in some ways and were also very easy. Remember, accuracy does not require complexity and detail and many games that start out simple often grow to immense weight with lots and lots of special rules (eg 40K, FOW, Squad Leader, Star Fleet Battles, etc.).

[kennerator]

Sorry, was't trying to sound snobby, its just all the games of warhammer (40k) Ive seen played, about 8 or so, seem like they needed more room to run around. Each army would advance a bit then the handfuls of dice would start dropping. Granted, all the games I did observe were in GW stores where space was a bit limited.

I'd like to try to stay away from FOW, the cost is a bit much and some of the rules do seem a bit odd. FFT sounds interesting, I'll have to have a look. Any comment on the Panzer war rules?

[chrisswim]

The rule set GHQ provides should work well for starting out on WW 2.

Make it a lot of fun for him, perhaps help him in his game certainly if you know the rules having read them in advance. Complement some tactic he employs: hits your flank, had a spearhead that smashed you, arty that stopped your attack. Make it fun for him. Gamers usually want to have fun!!! German-US or German-Russian should work well.

Shermans vs. PZ 3, PZ 4, and a few Tigers for him as an example.

Good luck. Hope ya'll have some fun.

[Timothy OConnor]

Sorry, was't trying to sound snobby, its just all the games of warhammer (40k) Ive seen played, about 8 or so, seem like they needed more room to run around. Each army would advance a bit then the handfuls of dice would start dropping. Granted, all the games I did observe were in GW stores where space was a bit limited.

I'd like to try to stay away from FOW, the cost is a bit much and some of the rules do seem a bit odd. FFT sounds interesting, I'll have to have a look. Any comment on the Panzer war rules?

I don't think you sounded snobby at all. 40K and FOW take a very similar approach. Both are designed to sell miniatures as their first objective, primarily through a tourney system. Niether tries to recreate historical tactics. The value of a mini is tied directly to its performance on the tabletop. Make it more desirable from that perspective and people will buy it.

Thus, in FOW the ranges are scoped so that artillery models must appear on the table (and therefore must be purchased) even though the game scale is 1:1 at the company level (there's a special rule for off board arty but that's for special cases only).

In FOW the unit/figure/stand sizes relative to a standard 4' x 6' table mean that there's very little maneuver room. Troops basically start very close together, there's a mass of dice rolled, figures are removed, and a victor delcared. Games with a lower force to space ratio look better and require more maneuver/thought but don't sell as many figures. Check out the official FOW website and you'll notice immediately that the tables are crammed with figures. In the battle reports you'll also notice that the games basically come down to moving forward a bit and then shooting/assaulting since there are no open flanks or opportunity to fight in depth.

But I still wouldn't write off FOW, especially for a gamer moving from WH. He'll learn the rules easily and be more comforable with the move-shoot 40K tourney tactics tactics. If he has no knowledge of historical tactics he'll get his clock cleaned in more accurate systems and might be turned off as a result (I once had the opposite experience: a friend who commanded an M1 tank company in real life bought and painted a beautiful FOW force. When he tried to use his knowledge of real-world tactics I cleaned his clock with my knowledge of FOW game tactics. He really hated the system and ended up writing his own home grown rules).

[Panzerleader71]

My problem with FOW is that people are starting with it, but not moving on to anything else. As has been mentioned on other posts on this forum such suggetions are usually met with some level of ridicule. I've played the game a couple of times, thought it was a good game at the time, the friend runing it is a WWII history buff, and a good painter. Having recently bought the rules and read through some of them I can't see why he likes the game so much. I find it a surprise actually ,as my friend is as interested in the study of tactics as I am, and this game has no connecction to reality what so ever.

I agree it is a good game to get a novices feet wet in hobby, but get him off it as soon as is possible into a better more realistic medium. Other wise they will think the Battle of Kursk was fought by massed units marching out into a field 10 paces from each other, then opning up at muzzle-to-muzzle range.

I am a litle biased I guess. I really hate the need rulebook and source book to play tactics BF and GW use. The best wargames are generaly self contained.

[Extra Crispy]

Here's a simple way to get started.

Pick up one Combat Command each of US and Germans. You get a nice mixed force for each side and keep your costs under $100. Get painting.

Rule sets:

Try ODGW's Mein Panzer. 1:1 and is built in "modules" so you can start simple and add more in later like command and control, supply, etc. If you get a gamer add some more units. At $10 a pack you can add a few new tanks or weapons at a time and no break the bank (you may even get him to buy an army).

Lastly, I play FoW. It's a fun game. You can use GHQ fgs with it. Since it is based on stands, not figures, any size figure will work. I'm actually doing it in half scale I mount the figures on stands sized 50% and have special half size rulers.

[dougeagle]

I myself play Flames of War (after having played 40k for years) and thoroughly enjoy it as well. However, as Cama had stated earlier, you can spend a large amount on rule books alone, much like 40k (1 book per force). On the other hand, they do have it set up in time frames- Early War 1939-41, Mid War 1942-43, Late War 1944-45. I have a mid war force of Italians in North Africa as well as Canadians for Late War. If you like the uber tanks then the late war is what you want, but if you're more into the light armour with small caliber guns, then Early way is the way to go (see if a 37mm ATG penetrates the armour of a Char B).

I also have GHQ rules on WW2 and Modern and enjoy both. They are fairly easy to understand and get a hang of once you read them once or twice then play. I also have FFT2 rules (A Fistful of TOWs 2) and there are free downloads of FFT and FFT2 and I am currently waiting for FFT3 to come out as it covers both WW2 and Modern, where as FFT and FFT2 only cover from after WW2 to modern times.

[Mk 1]

I've never played FOW myself. But in listening to FOWers at gaming con's and shop game-nights, and in reading the discussions here, I am left to conclude that FOW lacks at least one aspect that is very important to me in micro-armor gaming ... namely it lacks details on the tanks.

I don't want to have my M4A1 1942 production Sherman dropped into the same bucket as my Sherman M4A3 late 1944 production Sherman, much less dropped into the same bucket with Pz 4s, Pz IIIs, T-34s, and Cromwells. Even if several of the above may get the same frontal protection rating, or the same gun penetration ratings, or whatever ... I want to know that a Sherman was slower on a road than a Cromwell, and had better side armor than a Pz 4.

Also, I have seen too many FOW games that are just wheel-to-hub tanks on each side. But I expect that has as much, or more, to do with the game master as the game rules.

I suggest trying some micro-armor specific rules. The Mein Panzer rules suggested in a piror post are excellet -- my current first choice. But they are a little pricey, and a little complicated for beginners in micro-armor. If you've played other miniatures games you can probably handle them just fine. I like them a lot, and the website has a lot of good examples of play, and a lively forum for asking questions.

A simpler ruleset is Jagdpanzer. They play pretty well, a game of a company or so per player can run to decision in a few hours, there isn't much down time while fighting with tables, etc., and infantry has a reasonable place on the board with the tanks. At least, that is what I've seen in the games I've played.

The Jagdpanzer rules have been out of print for a while, but you can still find copies floating around at gaming shops, on eBay, and occasionally from other gamers. James, who occasions this board as "PaloAlto", is owner of a Yahoo! chat group on Jagdpanzer and wargaming: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jagdpanzer/ . He's a very easy guy to get along with, and welcomes most anyone into the discussion. He's in touch with the authors/copyright owners, and may be able to turn you on to any new production runs in the near future. However, the group is in fact mostly a local set of guys in the Silicon Valley who gather for a game about once a month or so. So it may seem like a bit of a closed-club to you from far away.

The suggestion to start with a couple of combat commands is a good one. Determine what timeperiod and front you'd like to play. Late war (1944) is the most popular, with both Germans vs. Soviets (Eastern Front), and Germans vs. US or Brits (ETO) being common. The Western Desert is also very popular, and has a real advantage on the cost and complexity of terrain. A road or two, two or three buildings, and a couple palm trees, and you're done!

Scale the size of your forces to track your table. A relatively small table (a card table, a dinner table) should not have more than one or two companies per side. Larger tables can get up to a battalion, or even a couple of battalions per side. I use a ping-pong table, which allows two or three battalions per side, and still gives enough room to maneuver. It is among the larger tables I've seen used. Most folks find something smaller.

To start off on the terrain, you might try the approach I use. I'm not exactly new at this, as I've been playing micro-armor wargames since the mid-1970s, but I still rely on a pretty basic approach to terrain. Get a colored felt cloth at your local fabric store. Get it big enough to cover whatever table you plan to use. Choose a light green felt for Europe, or a tan felt for the desert. Get some colored tape at your local hardware store -- brown or tan for dirt roads, black or gray for paved roads, and blue for rivers and streams. Get some bagged lichen (railroad hobby shop) to build quick-and-cheap forrests. Get a few micro-scale buildings (GHQ's are wonderful, beautiful buildings, but the variety isn't too big. Maybe OK for your first couple battles. Or go with some cheaper resin-cast buildings from brand-X vendors. Or cheapest of all are the paper/cardboard buildings you can print out on your PC printer and cut-paste into shape, but that requires a bit of an investment in your time.) 6 or 8 buildings should be enough to get you gaming. But you'll never have too many, so expect to keep acquiring.

For elevations (hills) I use corrugated cardboard. Just take an x-acto knife to all those old cartons that are cluttering up your garage. Cut a bunch of shapes, stack a few of 'em up, spray 'em green (or tan) to approximately match your cloth, and you're good to go.

MLuther (on this board) has shown some marvelous terrain using pastel markers on cloth table coverings. He puts things under the cloth to get elevation, and draws his roads, his slopes, etc. right on the cloth. I really like his results, and I've bought my pastels, but haven't tried his approach in a game yet. Sure looks good. But perhaps a bit more involved than just laying down some tape.

Good luck. Give us an AAR (in the AAR thread) when you actually pull it off. We'd all love to hear the tale.

[Thunder]

I would suggest a US M4 Sherman company and a German Panzer 4 company. I wouldn't go with the combat command sets though as they are pricey for what you get. I would buy the actual blister packs which come out to the same price, but you get more miniatures.

3 packs of http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/g44.html

1 pack of http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/g144.html

3 packs of http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/us74.html

1 pack of http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/us76.html

That comes out to about $80 if purchased here or cheaper if purchased elsewhere.

No, I'm not pushing the competition's models, but simply pointing out other sites sell GHQ product for 10% less than retail.

[kennerator]

You guys have been great. Mien Panzer rules look pretty good, I like the fact that you can add to them as you learn the core rules. The $100 price tag is a bit daunting. I may go with Panzer War micro armour rules, the price is right and they look pretty good. I'm still going to look at FFOTII. Thanks again for all the suggestions. Wish me luck. K

[Mk 1]

You guys have been great. Mien Panzer rules look pretty good, I like the fact that you can add to them as you learn the core rules. The $100 price tag is a bit daunting. I may go with Panzer War micro armour rules, the price is right and they look pretty good.

As I said, I really like Mein Panzer.

You don't have to start with the full set at $100. You can start with the core rules, and then only add on the modules as you go. Comes out to more total, but you don't need to commit to the total until you know you like it. The rules emphasize the dynamics of the game (and the flow of the action). To my view they are better than most in keeping a larger game, with battalion + forces and multiple players per side, flowing and interesting.

As to PanzerWar ... yes, the price is right. Gotta tip the hat to Mobius. The rules are VERY good, and the price can't be beat. I've played them extensively, and I really like them. But ... the PW rules are very detailed. I would advise caution before diving in with them as a first set. You may really struggle to get the games flowing. They are perhaps better as an "advanced player's" ruleset, where ultimate detail is sought for platoon- to company-sized actions.

Another set of rules to consider is Schwere Kompanie, published by Troy Ritter (of this forum). I've got them, and I've read them, though in truth I've never played them. As with PanzerWar they seem best suited to platoon- to company-sized actions, but in the balance place more emphasis on the flow of the game (and the action), with less emphasis on the depth of detail of armor and gunpower. Maybe better for newbies to micro-armor.

[thenorthman]

I would second Mein Panzer as a good set of WWII rules for Micro Armour.

Have got folks who have played FOW to start playing Cold War Commander (a Modern Blitzkrieg Commander basically from my understanding but cant be sure since never played Blitzkrieg Commander but that could be another option.

Mein Panzer is a good set of rules with what they call drop in modules. This means you can have it as simple as you like or as complicated s you like.

Personally never got that far beyond just having it the simple play with limited air support. Always wanted to get it farther than that though. Like they have options for Armored Trains, Engineers, etc. Plus have not visited it lately but they did have a very good online support for them.

Sean

[kennerator]

Another vote for mein panzer, looks like mein panzer shall be mein rule set. Thanks again for all the great advice.

[pmskaar]

I would also like to voice my support for Mein Panzer when doing 1 to 1 scale games. This is a great set of rules and as already stated the modular nature allows you to make the games simple and swift or if you want to have more complexity then you can do that as well. I have run numerous games at one of our local game stores here in the Phoenix area and have attracted several converts. The basic armor rules can be learned in 10 to 15 minutes and I am able to get people playing with just explaining and giving a short demo in that time using the "advanced" rules. Our next project is to do an infantry heavy engagement during Barbarossa with some tank and mortar support thrown into the mix.
Have a great day!

Pete - Binpicker, Out!