Modern Naval rules
Moderators: dnichols, GHQ, Mk 1
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av8rmongo
- E5
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:24 pm
- Location: Newport, RI
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John,
Yes they do. They have five experience ratings, Recruit, Novice, Competent, Experienced and Veteran. Each step up in experience affects things like accuracy of attacks with guns, bombs and rockets, dogfight capability, chance of crashing during NOE flight, chance of landing accidents etc.
In the realm of dogfighting, this comes from the newly revised dogfight rules, the advantage can be substatial. Assume two identical planes fighting each other so machine wise everything is even. Obviously if the pilots are even then the fight is even. If there is one level difference, Competent vs. Experienced lets say, then the better pilot could have a 5-10% advantage. (there are a lot of variables that go into the calculation that I am glossing over. For purely gun engagements the range of results is 4-12% depending on the specific guns/airframe combo - how much damage can the guns do/how much damage can the plane take.) If there are two levels of difference then the advantage could range anywhere from 7-20%. If you fight a Recruit with a Veteran the Veteran has up to a 40% greater chance of getting the kill. The Recruit could still "get lucky" but in evenly matched aircraft his chances are in single digits.
So what happens if you have a bad pilot in a good airplane against a good pilot in a bad airplane? How much can pilot skill make up for a bad aircraft? For that we'll have to get into hard numbers.
Aircraft have Maneuver Ratings - a complex assessment of how well the turn, accelerate etc. basically how well can the manage their energy state. A comparison of Maneuver Ratings is the first step in determining the kill chance. Lets assume for our discussion that the French are once again steaming off the coast of South East Asia looking for some payback. But its 1998 and the Vietnamese have SU-27 Flankers while the French are still flying F-8 Crusaderrs. Here's how it would break down:
Maneuver Rating
Fllanker 4.5 (Maneuver Difference +1.0)
Crusader 3.5 (Maneuver Difference -1.0)
Full Military Power (If speed is 50-99kts different +/- .5, 100-149kts different +/- 1.0 etc.)
Flanker 760 (Speed Modifier +.5) Note this is for high altitude dogfight.
Crusader 700 (Speed Modifier -.5)
Pilot Rating
Flanker Novice
Crusader Experienced
Aircraft Gun Rating
Flanker 3.5
Crusader 3.7
Aircraft Damage Rating
Flanker 35
Crusader 21
Lethality index (Gun Rating vs. Aircraft Damage Chart)
Flanker .34
Crusader .27
Kill Chance (Maneuver Difference vs. Lethality Index chart)
Flanker Maneuver Difference +1.5 (Maneuver rating + Speed Modifier)
Pk = .16 (not modified for pilot skill)
Crusader Maneuver Difference -1.5 (Maneuver rating + Speed Modifier)
Pk = .04 (not modified for pilot skill)
Looking at just guns equal pilots will have a tough time fighting this to conclusion although the Flanker has a 12% advantage.
Now if we adjust for pilot skill there is a two level difference so the Crusader pilot moves two columns right and two rows down on the chart. (I know you cant see the chart but trust me) and the Flanker pilot moves two columns left and two rows up on the charts.
Pilot Skill adjusted Kill Chance
Flanker .09
Crusader .07
Pilot skill has effectively neutralized the advantage provided by a couple of decades of improved fighter design. The Kill chance is per 1 minute dogfight round. With such low probabilities (essentially evenly matched opponents) this engagement is probably going to result in a draw.
Now if we turn the tables and the Vietnamese pilot is Experienced and the Crusader pilot is a Novice the numbers look like this:
Flanker .25
Crusader .01
Under these circumstances the Crusader pilot is probably dead he just doesn't know it yet.
I could go on and on but I'll bring up one more point about aircraft match-ups. The speed advantage in this match-up only exist for the Flanker at high altitude. At medium altitude they're within 50kts of each other so no modifier. At low altitude the Crusader actually has a speed advantage and would get a positive modifier. Just as a smart fighter pilot knows his enemy's weaknesses a smart player will look for where he has the best chance of success and drive the fight there. If the Experienced Crusader pilot fights at his best altitude he now has a marginal advantage (about 2%).
I've ignored missile fire because I wanted to profile the importance of pilot skill ratings. Missiles bring another factor, the Air To Air (ATA) rating, which would have complicated this discussion too much.
Paul
Yes they do. They have five experience ratings, Recruit, Novice, Competent, Experienced and Veteran. Each step up in experience affects things like accuracy of attacks with guns, bombs and rockets, dogfight capability, chance of crashing during NOE flight, chance of landing accidents etc.
In the realm of dogfighting, this comes from the newly revised dogfight rules, the advantage can be substatial. Assume two identical planes fighting each other so machine wise everything is even. Obviously if the pilots are even then the fight is even. If there is one level difference, Competent vs. Experienced lets say, then the better pilot could have a 5-10% advantage. (there are a lot of variables that go into the calculation that I am glossing over. For purely gun engagements the range of results is 4-12% depending on the specific guns/airframe combo - how much damage can the guns do/how much damage can the plane take.) If there are two levels of difference then the advantage could range anywhere from 7-20%. If you fight a Recruit with a Veteran the Veteran has up to a 40% greater chance of getting the kill. The Recruit could still "get lucky" but in evenly matched aircraft his chances are in single digits.
So what happens if you have a bad pilot in a good airplane against a good pilot in a bad airplane? How much can pilot skill make up for a bad aircraft? For that we'll have to get into hard numbers.
Aircraft have Maneuver Ratings - a complex assessment of how well the turn, accelerate etc. basically how well can the manage their energy state. A comparison of Maneuver Ratings is the first step in determining the kill chance. Lets assume for our discussion that the French are once again steaming off the coast of South East Asia looking for some payback. But its 1998 and the Vietnamese have SU-27 Flankers while the French are still flying F-8 Crusaderrs. Here's how it would break down:
Maneuver Rating
Fllanker 4.5 (Maneuver Difference +1.0)
Crusader 3.5 (Maneuver Difference -1.0)
Full Military Power (If speed is 50-99kts different +/- .5, 100-149kts different +/- 1.0 etc.)
Flanker 760 (Speed Modifier +.5) Note this is for high altitude dogfight.
Crusader 700 (Speed Modifier -.5)
Pilot Rating
Flanker Novice
Crusader Experienced
Aircraft Gun Rating
Flanker 3.5
Crusader 3.7
Aircraft Damage Rating
Flanker 35
Crusader 21
Lethality index (Gun Rating vs. Aircraft Damage Chart)
Flanker .34
Crusader .27
Kill Chance (Maneuver Difference vs. Lethality Index chart)
Flanker Maneuver Difference +1.5 (Maneuver rating + Speed Modifier)
Pk = .16 (not modified for pilot skill)
Crusader Maneuver Difference -1.5 (Maneuver rating + Speed Modifier)
Pk = .04 (not modified for pilot skill)
Looking at just guns equal pilots will have a tough time fighting this to conclusion although the Flanker has a 12% advantage.
Now if we adjust for pilot skill there is a two level difference so the Crusader pilot moves two columns right and two rows down on the chart. (I know you cant see the chart but trust me) and the Flanker pilot moves two columns left and two rows up on the charts.
Pilot Skill adjusted Kill Chance
Flanker .09
Crusader .07
Pilot skill has effectively neutralized the advantage provided by a couple of decades of improved fighter design. The Kill chance is per 1 minute dogfight round. With such low probabilities (essentially evenly matched opponents) this engagement is probably going to result in a draw.
Now if we turn the tables and the Vietnamese pilot is Experienced and the Crusader pilot is a Novice the numbers look like this:
Flanker .25
Crusader .01
Under these circumstances the Crusader pilot is probably dead he just doesn't know it yet.
I could go on and on but I'll bring up one more point about aircraft match-ups. The speed advantage in this match-up only exist for the Flanker at high altitude. At medium altitude they're within 50kts of each other so no modifier. At low altitude the Crusader actually has a speed advantage and would get a positive modifier. Just as a smart fighter pilot knows his enemy's weaknesses a smart player will look for where he has the best chance of success and drive the fight there. If the Experienced Crusader pilot fights at his best altitude he now has a marginal advantage (about 2%).
I've ignored missile fire because I wanted to profile the importance of pilot skill ratings. Missiles bring another factor, the Air To Air (ATA) rating, which would have complicated this discussion too much.
Paul
“It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.â€
― George Orwell, 1984
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
- George Orwell
http://av8rmongo.wordpress.com
― George Orwell, 1984
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
- George Orwell
http://av8rmongo.wordpress.com
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jb
- E5
- Posts: 2160
- Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:13 am
- Location: Antananarivo
Harpoon4.1 or H4
...I've been putting my H4 to study the last few days. I'm really impressed with the details that may be used with them. The aircraft rules can really be frustrating though (I'm still new to these rules). It seems to me you need to figure out everything you will need for a mission i.e. Total fuel, including drop tanks, weight of weapons load, performance at different altitudes (aircraft consume different amounts of fuel at different altitudes) including the speed at those altitudes, figure in time of combat engagement( depending on mission) subtract this fuel consumption, to include a few minutes of reserve. Now hope that you don't need to deviate from any of these factors, or ones that I forgot to mention because you will need to refigure your range over again.
I know it sounds a little complicated for some, but there is some good stuff here. I'm looking at making some shortcuts here for my personal play, but overall a lot of detail in these rules.
The ships also follow along these lines of detail. Take into account sensors i.e. Surface radars, air search radars, and sonar. Now take into account the range due to the targets size and cross view, and if in littoral combat things like shorelines and islands that may be used as cover form sensors. Also to mention that sensors may pick up enemy sensors that is being used against if you are in a specified range.
The weapons also take things into account as to what kind of generation it has for finding and hitting a target. On the same token the target may have counter measures to sway the missile or torpedoes away using electronics or decoys.
Overall I find the details pretty complete and I am pretty satisfied with what I got.
I know it sounds a little complicated for some, but there is some good stuff here. I'm looking at making some shortcuts here for my personal play, but overall a lot of detail in these rules.
The ships also follow along these lines of detail. Take into account sensors i.e. Surface radars, air search radars, and sonar. Now take into account the range due to the targets size and cross view, and if in littoral combat things like shorelines and islands that may be used as cover form sensors. Also to mention that sensors may pick up enemy sensors that is being used against if you are in a specified range.
The weapons also take things into account as to what kind of generation it has for finding and hitting a target. On the same token the target may have counter measures to sway the missile or torpedoes away using electronics or decoys.
Overall I find the details pretty complete and I am pretty satisfied with what I got.
John
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Panzerleader71
- E5
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- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:16 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
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av8rmongo
- E5
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:24 pm
- Location: Newport, RI
- Contact:
Just like real life. Planning missions at the extreme edge of endurance is usually a bad idea. In order to avoid having to do this - on the fly so to speak - during a game build in enough "Combat Margin" into the flight plan or conversely know how much slop you have in your plan so you can make a Go / No-Go decision if the situation deteriorates. The Clash of Arms website has a section which covers errata for their various Trilogy games in this section there is a CIC (Combat Information Center) link that has several useful player aide downloads. One of these is a spreadsheet that assists players planning out flight missions. Over the years I have modified it for my own purposes to the point where after I enter in the planned flight profile my spreadsheet tells me how many minutes of "Loiter" I have available. If something happens during the mission I now have a Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) number of how long I can hang out / press forward before I have to execute the bingo profile back to home base. Do the up front planning and the game will go much more smoothly.Now hope that you don't need to deviate from any of these factors, or ones that I forgot to mention because you will need to refigure your range over again.
Paul
“It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.â€
― George Orwell, 1984
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
- George Orwell
http://av8rmongo.wordpress.com
― George Orwell, 1984
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
- George Orwell
http://av8rmongo.wordpress.com
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av8rmongo
- E5
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:24 pm
- Location: Newport, RI
- Contact:
Me personally? Once I have the details of the flight plan on paper I can control a practically unlimited number of aircraft as long as I can keep the callsigns straight (its time consuming to move them or plot them for a PBEM game but that's a different matter). Each aircraft gets its own worksheet tab in my spreadsheet for the game. The basic aircraft data is entered, the ordnance and extra fuel tanks are also entered. Each leg of the flight is entered and the fuel required is automatically calculated. There's even a "Notes" section at the bottom where I enter in a verbal acount of the mission, objectives, flight plan intentions etc. so that I can refresh my memory if I'm doing a PBEM game and its been a while since the last turn. If the aircraft has to deviate from the pre-flight plan the spreadsheet automatically shows what the impact of that change is and I will know instantly if the mission is in jeopardy due to fuel etc. But remember flight operations are what I've done my entire adult life and I've been playing Harpoon for over 20yrs so there is a familiarity that the average player probably wouldn't have.
If the scenario is carfully tailored an average player can handle up to a squadron's worth of aircraft (10-12). By carefully tailored I mean all the administrivia is done ahead of time, fuel is adequate for the mission etc. Players easily can get overwhelmed in the crew fatigue, maintenance, refuel/rearm rules etc. Its very much like running a real squadron with the amount of paperwork that is involved. A novice player shouldn't have more than four aircarft max to control at any one time, more than that I think and you can easily get lost in the detail resulting in less than maximum performance.
In large scenarios or campaigns with an aircraft carrier/airwing ideally should have 1 player act as the CO of the ship and the airwing (and should be an experienced player). That player, the CAG, would decide which targets will be attacked, what forces will be assigned etc. They should also keep trake of the maintenance issues for the aircraft. He can fly missions too if desired and workload permits. Each aircraft squadron should have its own CO player as well - if there are enough players. They're responsible for flight planning, crew fatigue etc. and will actually manuever the aircraft in the game. If the number of players are limited I recommend assigning squadrons by function i.e. player A runs the two fighter squadrons, player B runs the light and medium attack squadrons etc. That allows players to focus on a narrower set of rules and capabilities and they can maximize their performance.
One of the good things about these rules is that while the air rules are detailed there is enough abstraction that the player doesn't have to be a fighter ace to be successful. Fighters enter a dogfight and as I outlined above their chances are determined by a host of factors. The individual aircraft are just considered "in the furball" the player doesn't have to know anything about air combat maneuvering. There are games for that if you want that level of detail.
I hope that helps.
Paul
If the scenario is carfully tailored an average player can handle up to a squadron's worth of aircraft (10-12). By carefully tailored I mean all the administrivia is done ahead of time, fuel is adequate for the mission etc. Players easily can get overwhelmed in the crew fatigue, maintenance, refuel/rearm rules etc. Its very much like running a real squadron with the amount of paperwork that is involved. A novice player shouldn't have more than four aircarft max to control at any one time, more than that I think and you can easily get lost in the detail resulting in less than maximum performance.
In large scenarios or campaigns with an aircraft carrier/airwing ideally should have 1 player act as the CO of the ship and the airwing (and should be an experienced player). That player, the CAG, would decide which targets will be attacked, what forces will be assigned etc. They should also keep trake of the maintenance issues for the aircraft. He can fly missions too if desired and workload permits. Each aircraft squadron should have its own CO player as well - if there are enough players. They're responsible for flight planning, crew fatigue etc. and will actually manuever the aircraft in the game. If the number of players are limited I recommend assigning squadrons by function i.e. player A runs the two fighter squadrons, player B runs the light and medium attack squadrons etc. That allows players to focus on a narrower set of rules and capabilities and they can maximize their performance.
One of the good things about these rules is that while the air rules are detailed there is enough abstraction that the player doesn't have to be a fighter ace to be successful. Fighters enter a dogfight and as I outlined above their chances are determined by a host of factors. The individual aircraft are just considered "in the furball" the player doesn't have to know anything about air combat maneuvering. There are games for that if you want that level of detail.
I hope that helps.
Paul
“It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.â€
― George Orwell, 1984
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
- George Orwell
http://av8rmongo.wordpress.com
― George Orwell, 1984
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
- George Orwell
http://av8rmongo.wordpress.com
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av8rmongo
- E5
- Posts: 1637
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:24 pm
- Location: Newport, RI
- Contact:
Sorry. Yes, PBEM = Play By Email as opposed to FTF = Face To Face.
If you PM me your email I'll send you my work in progress spreadsheet so you can see what I'm talking about. I have also built worksheets that automate many of the basic missions aircraft will do. I have incorporated the bombing, air to air and surface to air rules so that when I'm GM I can quickly reslove combat and when I'm a player I can run different flight paramaters to quickly determine where my best chance of success is i.e. should I start the dogfight at high altitude, should I drop in a level laydown, dive or toss profile etc. Eventually, when its debugged and fully annotated I'll publish it to the Clash of Arms site for everyone, right now there are things that I struggle to remember what the intent was if I don't look at for a while.
Paul
If you PM me your email I'll send you my work in progress spreadsheet so you can see what I'm talking about. I have also built worksheets that automate many of the basic missions aircraft will do. I have incorporated the bombing, air to air and surface to air rules so that when I'm GM I can quickly reslove combat and when I'm a player I can run different flight paramaters to quickly determine where my best chance of success is i.e. should I start the dogfight at high altitude, should I drop in a level laydown, dive or toss profile etc. Eventually, when its debugged and fully annotated I'll publish it to the Clash of Arms site for everyone, right now there are things that I struggle to remember what the intent was if I don't look at for a while.
Paul
“It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.â€
― George Orwell, 1984
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
- George Orwell
http://av8rmongo.wordpress.com
― George Orwell, 1984
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
- George Orwell
http://av8rmongo.wordpress.com