Russian T-90 capabilities....how good is it?

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CA-68
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:35 pm

Russian T-90 capabilities....how good is it?

Post by CA-68 »

Does anyone know, or have links to, any hard data regarding not only the tank, but its various subsystems and their effectiveness? Ive always enjoyed being the "red" player in our wargames, but somehow always felt my tanks were getting the short end of the stick....is the T-90 my revenge against all those Leos and M1s? Worse, is it,, in reality, a better tank than the others in the world? Russian armor tactics and training aside here, lets just talk about the vehicle itsself.

Three systems in particular beg for hard data...the 9M119M guided AT missile (range/penetration/accuracy/flight time?)
The data i have seen all seems pretty similar, that the missile has a range of from 100m or so to 8 km (i have my doubts that it can travel 8 km accurately enough to hit a tank-sized target) and can penetrate about 800 mm of armor. It also supposedly can be used to destroy enemy aircraft, like helicopters ( i would REALLY like some proof on this, cause i would REALLY like to blast those Apaches that seem to chew me up all the time)
I havent seen any information that stated it had any off-axis targeting capability, so i would assume that the aircraft would need to be flying low enough that the tank could get it's gun pointed at it, which is no easy feat. I dont think helo pilots intend to sit still and let the tank take potshots at them. Claimed hit probability is "over 0.8"

Unfortunately, the Russians havent returned my calls....sigh :roll:

The Shtora & Arena active self defense systems....how reliably can it destroy/negate incoming hostile projectiles? How many can it track and engage at once? How effective is it at jamming them? Supposedly the Shtora/Arena combination makes the tank 1.5 to 1.7 times as "survivable"

And the "third generation" reactive armour, which supposedly has increased protection versus top attack weapons (the effectiveness of the top attack protection could be disputed by the tank's showing in urban environments in Chechnya, however, tanks do not now, nor have they ever, belonged on confined city streets)

The tank itsself, on paper , seems extremely impressive. The limited combat use it has seen is mixed...ie, Chechnya. But is that the fault of the vehicle, or of placing it in a position where hostiles can shoot missiles at its roof from extremely short ranges? Supposedly it can detonate HE rounds at a predetermined distance for added use versus helicopters or enemy infantry in defile? It uses a steel/ceramic/plastic composite armor that, once again, supposedly, is the equal or superior to any armor in the world today....and lastly, perhaps a tribute to how good it might just be, Saudi Arabia is negotiating an order for 180 of them, i thought they used the M1? Seems fishy to order a new tank unless it offers something your current tank dosent provide? India has also signed on to purchase several hundred (possibly 1 thousand) T90s....

Russia posesses about 400-500 T-90s and T-90As (which seems to be an up-engined T90, with horsepower improved from 840 to 1000) as of this writing (reports vary depending on the source on the numbers that they have in service) also have seen some reports that they are "upgrading" T-72s to T-90 standards....once again, the data somewhat conflicts with itsself. The T-90s armor (steel/ceramic/plastics) was NOT used in the T-72, so it will not be the equal of the T-90 in all areas, though upgrading weapon and add-on systems certainly never hurts (as our good friends in Israel like to demonstrate, time and again)

How much of this is to be believed? Is it generally agreed this tank is superior, in armament and protection, to the T-80 series? Is it the equal of, or superior to, the mainline western tanks, such as Leo 2A5 or M1A2? I dunno why, but this particular tank has intrigued me since i first saw a picture of it several years ago. From a wargaming standpoint, for the "red" player, this is pretty exciting stuff. From a real world standpoint,
its impact on the world environment is largely undetermined.

The sources varied from Wikipedia, to Janes, to globalsecurity.org. I checked about a dozen different sources, the information that is available all seems pretty consistent, EXCEPT the numbers the Russians currently posess. However, they do seem to generally increase as the dates of update/posting on the various sites grew more recent, which i would assume is because they are building more of them all the time (production figures vary from 10 to 30 a month)

I suppose i better order a bunch anyways....if nothing else, i like how the thing looks.

Image[/img]

edited cause i found more data=)

Timothy OConnor
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Post by Timothy OConnor »

This is a tough nut to crack. So tough that it's probably not worth it. Here's why...

Lots of modern games take a stab at modeling defensive protection (armor and other systems) and weapon lethality. But based on what? Secret government documents?

:roll:

In the best case anecdotal evidence provides some broad information as to relative performance when comparing specific weapons, but even then it's questionable.

For example, there are reports that "small arms" fire has downed Apaches in Iraq and the book Not a Good Day to Die describes in detail how an Apache was made combat ineffective by small arms fire (it and it's wingman had to leave the battle and barely made it home). But other sources say the Apache is supposed to be armored against 20-23mm autocannons!!!

In the book M2/M3 Bradley at War there are accounts of RPGs bouncing off Brads but also putting them out of commision (no description of what happened to the crew). The book also states that uparmored Brads are armored against 30mm cannon fire and implies that a Bradley's 25mm gun destroyed an Iraqi tank :!: at close range during the first Gulf War.

Another book describes the great difficulty an Abrams crew had in destroying another Abrams at point blank range during the initial invasion of Iraq (they didn't want to leave it for the Iraqis as a propaganda op but didn't have time to rmeove it properly).

One website describes how the latest Russian RPGs and ATGMs were used to great effect against the Israeli Merkavas in summer of 2006.

In all cases there was very little info as to exactly how these AFVs were destroyed (eg where they were hit, angle, etc.) :?

So, for the modern gamer it's probably best to look at things from a game perspective and make broad judgements as to relative performance that might seem reasonable to a gamer and that would make for a good game. :idea:

For example, we played a modern game today with M1s vs Chinese Type 98s (very nice model GHQ!). Not having access to Chinese Military Secrets I made the Type 98s slightly less effective relative to the M1s but not so weak that they would play like a T-72. At first an M1 player was surprised he was having a tougher time than usual against "T-72s" until he took a closer look at the model!!! So its tabletop performance felt "right" to the players. Its gun-missile was better than its 125mm gun at long range but the gun was better at shorter ranges. But in both cases the M1 had the edge (right or wrong) but not nearly the edge it would have over older tanks.

In the end I bought it and WZ551s because, like you, I really like how they look! And I wanted OpFors to put up a better fight than American players are accostomed to. As one gamer noted today, the Chinese Type 98 looks like a T72 with an M1 turret! :-) As for hard data, it's simply not there, but at least there are some "war stories" floating around at there. Besides, even if you had test range data, if a game doesn't conform to gamers' preconceived ideas it doesn't matter what data says! :shock:

hauptgrate
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:39 am

Post by hauptgrate »

Good luck finding out anything! Obviously the Russian Army and the manufacturer has the data you want, but they're not going to give it out unless you're going to by several hundred -- and even then I wouldn't doubt the data is 'spun' to show only the most positive aspects of the systems. One of the problems in gaming moderns...sigh...

CA-68
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:35 pm

Post by CA-68 »

I found this, seems pretty genuine. I dont know if this speaks well of Russian armor, or of the RPG-29....probably the same missile that was referred to above as being used against the Israelis.

http://russianarmor.info/Tanks/index.html


The left side of the page, in the row of links, the very bottom link marked 20.10.99 has some pretty interesting test results regarding Russian tanks and missiles that they fired at them, as well as revealing a few more inconsistencies with the Shtora system....but the missiles vs armor results themselves are some interestin stuff!

SSgtBuck
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Location: Maine, USA

Post by SSgtBuck »

probably nothing here that you don't already know, but there are links to pics as well :)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/t-90.htm
Rock is dead, long live paper & scissors

CA-68
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:35 pm

Post by CA-68 »

Thanks for the link, some very good pics there of the tank and the camo pattern! Now i just need to determine the "right" colors :shock:

CA-68
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:35 pm

Post by CA-68 »

AU Cav wrote:IMO, I'll no longer believe in Russian equipment until I actually see it, or at least someone not Russian does. But the odds are you'll never really find out until there is a conflict it is involved in. There are lots of nice forums making a living out of arguing superiority of MBTs of each country but realistically there is only one proven MBT out there now and everything else is based on field trials and gov't data.

Realistically you aren't going to really get a good grip on the capabilities. You're going to have to find a happy median amongst your group, with Red wanting it to be Ogre and Blue wanting it to be a T-55. Or do we still use Red v Blue?
You must be referring to the Merkava, right? :lol:

All kidding aside, i dont expect my gaming group or anyone else to believe its the be all and end all tank of all time....but it gets very, very tiresome with the Russian tanks having several times lower combat effectiveness than their western counterparts in wargames.

Real world, yeah, we dont know how good it is, and likely wont know until long after the next Russian "supertank" comes down the line. It IS well known that the Russian tanks have some issues, like the T80s picky engine, or the problem prone autoloader. I just dont want the thing (or, for that matter, any of the more modern Russian tanks) to be treated like...well, like T55s!

edited because i STILL cant spell....

Noble713
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Location: Okinawa

Post by Noble713 »

The best thing I can do is send you to the Tanknet AFV Forum:

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showforum=18

You will find a large number of knowledgable folks there, including current and former tankers with experience going back to Viet Nam, authors, as well as a few folks that I suspect are (or were) directly involved in the Ukrainian and Israeli tank industries. There are numerous in-depth threads discussing every technical detail of the hotly-debated Soviet/Russian tank designs.

JasonAfrika
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Location: Phoenix, AZ

Post by JasonAfrika »

One thing I think you guys are forgetting is how important the CREW is. Time and time again we have seen oil-rich nations spend billions on the "latest"(I have something to say about this later) world beater weapon system, but they still seem to get their butts kicked by lesser grade systems with far superior training and quality of manpower. Alot of these 3rd world armies can barely drive the vehicles let alone fight them. Over 50% of Angolan armor is combat ineffective because the crews can't even change the oill. Mercs have to be brought in from old Soviet Republicsto do it. Libya has something like 2000 tanks in their inventory but only enough crews for about 20% of them, even with mercs from Pakistan. Remeber the Gulf War? how everyone in the media was so scared of Iraqi Mig-29's? Yea well those guys spend about 30 hours a year flying racetrack patterns around the airfield and at parades, again they can barely fly the things let alone fight them. That's like paying $500 bucks to do a lap in an Indy car on your birthday and then expecting to go out against the best drivers in the world and win the 500...not happening. Oh yea, back to that statement "the latest" in military technology. Which in the real world translates to: Let's dump a stripped down locally licensed half a** copy of the real deal.onto these chumps in case we ever have to fight them and so we don't show our real enemies our best game and tip our hand, and oh yea so we can make an even bigger profit or score alot more oil credits. Iraqi T-72's were made in Iraq and were a poor reproductions by even Russian standards. On top of that, except for the RG units who put up a decent fight and at least got killed with some dignity intact, the regular units just flat out stunk. Anyone who thinks the Russians in their T-72's would have gone down that easy is well...in need of a reality check. You guys know that every wargame rules set has the TOW II at a 90% or even 100% hit rate, go ask the dudes who actually fire the things in combat what they think about that...can you get a purple heart for sore ribs from laughing so hard? Maybe if you're in a combat zone. Virtually all export weapons are at best second class versions of the real thing. Chinese copies of the T-54 (T-59)sold to Pakistan are so poorly made that that they literally fell apart when driven, parts falling off, gaps in the armor, etc. So what's my point? Yes, get as much data as you can on the weapon system, but factor in actual combat performance(if it ever did fight for real), and most importantly, crew quality. Remember that effective training is often not even part of most 3rd world armies' cultures, driving around the capital in shiny armor with cool camo uniforms and a nifty beret, harassing the locals is more their style.How would you guys rate an Egyptian M-1 in action? Certainly not even close to US-crewed M-1's...I hope!Something to think about!!!

jb
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Post by jb »

The rules I devised takes "skill" ratings into account for hitting targets, morale, close combat,etc. The stumbling block for me is the TOP SECRET data on armour. This is largely "guesstimation", for me and I'm sure "every" Modern rules designer.
For wargaming I , and I am sure for most of you, you don't want to get into a wargame were it takes a battalion of armor to just damage an enemy tank.
For my T-90s I have 2 versions one more along the lines for the whiners(the ones who will bet their lives it is totally inferior) and a Modern version more along the stats of M1s, LeoIIs, Chalengers, etc, etc. Besides if you play against great equipment your tactics might just improve.
I've also an updated version of the Ukranian T-84 UD (might be the wrong nomenclacture, but bear with me), supposedly a very formidable tank today.
Gaming wise the cold war is not over- it is just hot! and fun!
John

CA-68
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Post by CA-68 »

Jason's post brings up great points...the somewhat absurd bias that a lot of rules systems show western weapons. The quality and training of the crew is a huge factor, but MOST rules systems have game mechanics in place to simulate this, to a certain extent. Most also project Russian armor as useless, no matter how good it's crew is. If the gun has a 1% chance to destroy an M1, but the M1 has a 30% chance to destroy the T72...something is definately wrong here.

In Mobius' rules system AirLand war (by the way, if you read this, thank you for the free downloadable rules sets! I would happily pay for a rules system so comprehensive)
The T-80 and T-90 seem to get a pretty fair shake. The M1 and friends are better....but not 2 or 3 times as good. I can accept that.

JB you have a rules system?

jb
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Post by jb »

CA-68 wrote:Jason's post brings up great points...the somewhat absurd bias that a lot of rules systems show western weapons. The quality and training of the crew is a huge factor, but MOST rules systems have game mechanics in place to simulate this, to a certain extent. Most also project Russian armor as useless, no matter how good it's crew is. If the gun has a 1% chance to destroy an M1, but the M1 has a 30% chance to destroy the T72...something is definately wrong here.

In Mobius' rules system AirLand war (by the way, if you read this, thank you for the free downloadable rules sets! I would happily pay for a rules system so comprehensive)
The T-80 and T-90 seem to get a pretty fair shake. The M1 and friends are better....but not 2 or 3 times as good. I can accept that.

JB you have a rules system?
Yes I do. They are called PanzerTruppen, not to be confused with another set of rules on the market-"Panzertruppe" Its something that I've put together over the years. They are 1:1 scale (infantry stands as squads) rules that cover WWII to now. Ive lately used parts of MSH Modern Spearhead mixed with them for 5:1 scale gaming but resolving on a 1:1 scale. The last time I used them was at little Wars in Chicago, back in April. I've been playing other types of games since then.
John

dkolojek
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Post by dkolojek »

The Russian T-90/T-90S Tank: An Old Dog With Some Dangerous New Tricks; I was doing a little surfing the other night and came across this information. It is an articale from Armor Magazine. Although it is from 1995, I thought you might enjoy it.

https://www.knox.army.mil/center/ocoa/a ... ford95.pdf

Happy New Year to everyone.

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