2nd SS Panzer Korps ,Operation Zitadel

[jb]

I've got conflicted information as to how many panzer battalions were commanded by the SS divisions at Kursk.Some info says 1st and 2nd each had 1 battalion and 3rd none. On the other hand some sources say each had 2 battalions.
Would anbody care to enlighten me....

[Gort]

I've got George Nafziger's book on the order of battle of the waffen SS. There is fairly precise information on the three SS PzGren Divs at Kursk in it.

Both the 1st & 2nd had only the II/Pz Regt (each of 4 companies). Their I/Pz Regts were in Germany converting to Panthers. The 3rd had 2 battalions in it's Pz Regt, each composed of 3 companies. In addition, 2nd SS had 2nd SS PzJg Abt attached (in lieu of I/Pz Regt) equipped with 1 company of Pz III lang and 2 companies of captured T34s (20 or 25 total - sources vary). The tank strength of 1st SS was 90% Pz IV lang (F2/G/H), the balance being Pz III lang (J/M). The tank strengths of 2nd SS and 3rd SS were approx 40% Pz IV lang, the balance being Pz III lang, although 3rd SS also had a small number of Pz IV kurz (F1) (8 perhaps?) in one company. All divisions also had small numbers of PzII for recon, as well as a Tiger company, and a StuG battalion.

regards

Steve

[cbovill]

JB,

From the sources I have Gort's information is on track. When I get home tonight I can give you the specifics. I've got divisional histories for LAH and DR, as well as David Glantz's work on Kursk plus Thomas Jentz's and Nafziger's detailed accounts.

Chris

[cbovill]

According to Thomas L. Jentz in Panzertruppen vol. 2, on July 1st II SS PanzerKorps at Kursk had the following, he does not specify whether they were operational or not:

1st SS Panzergrenadier division LSSAH with SS PzRegt 1 stab, II PzAbt (5 - 8 ko.) and 13th schwerekompanie (Tigers). I PzAbt (1 - 4 ko.) in Germany equipping with Panthers.
4 PzKpfw II
3 PzKpfw III (kz)
10 PzKpfw III (lg)
67 PzKpfw IV (lg)
13 Tiger I
9 PzBflw

2nd SS Panzergrenadier division Das Reich with SS PzRegt 2 stab, II PzAbt (5 - 8 ko.), attached schwerekompanie (Tigers) (company number "S"), and SS PzJagdAbt 2 (3 ko's, 2 of them equipped with T-34's they manufactured during their stay in Kharkov), I PzAbt (1 - 4 ko.) in Germany equipping with Panthers.
1 PzKpfw II
62 PzKpfw III (lg)
33 PzKpfw IV (lg)
14 Tiger I
10 PzBflw
25 T-34

3rd SS Panzergrenadier division Totenkopf with SS PzRegt 3 stab, I PzAbt (3 ko.), II PzAbt (3 ko.), and 9th schwerekompanie (Tigers).
63 PzKpfw III (lg)
8 PzKpfw IV (kz)
44 PzKpfw IV (lg)
15 Tiger I
9 PzBflw

For a grand total of 390 tanks.
Notice this report fails to mention the numbers of Sturmgeschutz assigned to the StuG Abt's assigned to each of these divisions.

According to David M. Glantz in The Battle of Kursk, the SS Panzerkorps reported the following ON HAND TANKS/ASSAULT GUNS on July 1st:

1st SS Panzergrenadier division LSSAH
4 PzKpfw II
3 PzKpfw III (kz)
10 PzKpfw III (lg)
67 PzKpfw IV (lg)
13 Tiger I
9 PzBflw
35 StuG

2nd SS Panzergrenadier division Das Reich
1 PzKpfw III (kz)
62 PzKpfw III (lg)
33 PzKpfw IV (lg)
14 Tiger I
10 PzBflw
25 T-34
34 StuG

3rd SS Panzergrenadier division Totenkopf
63 PzKpfw III (lg)
8 PzKpfw IV (kz)
44 PzKpfw IV (lg)
15 Tiger I
9 PzBflw
35 StuG

For a grand total of 390 tanks and 104 assault guns. So two different sources in complete agreement on numbers of tanks available on the same date in time.

According to David M. Glantz in The Battle of Kursk[u*], the SS Panzerkorps reported the following OPERATIONAL TANKS/ASSAULT GUNS on July 4th:

1st SS Panzergrenadier division LSSAH
4 PzKpfw II
11 PzKpfw III (lg)
79 PzKpfw IV (lg)
12 Tiger I
9 PzBflw
34 StuG

2nd SS Panzergrenadier division Das Reich
1 PzKpfw III (kz)
47 PzKpfw III (lg)
30 PzKpfw IV (lg)
12 Tiger I
8 PzBflw
18 T-34
33 StuG

3rd SS Panzergrenadier division Totenkopf
59 PzKpfw III (lg)
5 PzKpfw IV (kz)
42 PzKpfw IV (lg)
11 Tiger I
8 PzBflw
28 StuG

For a grand total of 356 operational tanks and 95 operational assault guns. He also goes on to list the operational returns for the following days:
July 8
July 9
July 10
July 11
July 13
July 15
July 16

Let me know if you need any of these other dates.

Chris

[jb]

Chris ,and Steve,
Thanks for the information,it is really helpful. It seems that one could get this online from many sources but that is not the case. Thank god for this forum.
One thing that is now confusing is how to organize an 80 tank battalion?
Thanks again fellas

[cbovill]

Yeah I know, the numbers of tanks available to each unit considering they were being replenished at the time, don't make sense. But if you consider that when the first battalion of LSSAH and DR panzer regiments were each recalled back to Germany to train on the Panther, they left all their heavy equipment behind in Russia with the parent division it starts to add up.

Also, at the time Guderian was active as General Inspecteur der Panzertruppen and had decided that it was high time the panzer divisions had their full striking power restored to them, so he was in the process of trying to build them up to 22 tank companies (4th platoon in reserve) and two panzer regiments of two battalions each for each panzer division. Of course, events overtook his efforts and no panzer division ever did see two regiments after the 1940 split. But his attempts to get each company beefed up with a reserve platoon for sustained combat ability did reach some success, especially with more elite units.

[jb]

...after consideration after what you posted, 22 tank comapnies with Bn-Reg Hqs ,recon, and a 4th company does add up to the stats you quoted.
BTW the stats from 3 sources are a true treasure trove of vehicle information. It truly comes in handy for me personaly,and I'm sure for a lot of others here.
If I could ask you, what about the Gepanzert Panzergrenadier companies. How many were there in the SS battalions at citadel? And there composition, I hope you don't mind.

[hauptgrate]

Noting your reference to David Glantz -- I have been very impressed by all of his works. His use of ex-Soviet archives has been outstanding, and he has been able to bust some of the great myths about battles such as Kursk which we inherited from the Germans in the early cold war period. Anybody interested in eastern front WWII should pick up his several books and devour them.

[Mk 1]

His use of ex-Soviet archives has been outstanding, and he has been able to bust some of the great myths about battles such as Kursk which we inherited from the Germans in the early cold war period. ....

I too have a respectable collection of Glantz's work, which I hold in high regard. He has indeed done more to make the ex-Soviet archival information accessable to the western reader of 20th century military history than any other writer.

But it is worthwhile noting that his information is generally as one-sided as the information "we inherited from the Germans". His research and deep-dives are into the ex-Soviet archives. His information on German forces are generally drawn from secondary sources (other authors) rather than from deep-dives into the German archives. Deep dives into the archives on both sides for comparison and reconciliation holds greater promise for actually arriving at a coherent picture of "reality". That work is now left to other historians (and historical authors) trying to go beyond Glantz's work.

Kursk is a very good example. We have a whole set of "myths" about how the war on the Eastern Front was fought which come to us from the post-war writings of the German generals (the myth of the "Red Hords"). Glantz does good work exposing and dispelling this myth.

But at Kursk we have the myth of the greatest tank battle of all time at Prokhorovka. Of July 12, 1943, the day on which the great mass of T-34s of the 5th Guards Tank Army did a cavalry-like charge into an armored phalanx assembled from the combined might of three SS Panzergrenadier divisions, which were all advancing within the narrow plane between the Psel River and the railroad embankment. This myth, of some 800 Russian tanks driving at full spead into a body of some 650 German tanks, to engage them in a swirling battle at knife-fighting range, of one charge that fought the SS panzer corps to a stand-still, is a myth provided by the post war writings of Pavel Rotminstrov (commander of 5th Guards Tank Army at Kursk, and post-war Marshal of all armored forces), as re-told by Martin Caidin in "The Tigers are Burning", not by any German general.

In fact, as we see above, the Germans had no-where near 650 tanks at Prokhorovka. It seems from the German archives that only one SS Panzergrenadier division was advancing between the Psel and the railroad embankment, the second was on the other side of the Psel engaging other Soviet forces (not the 5th Guards Tank Army), while the third was advancing cautiously through the wooded hills to the south-east of the railroad embankment.

And oddly enough, given Rotminstrov's highly dramatic account, the Germans made very little note of any significant events on July 12, or on any one day on their advance towards Prokhorovka. No one great single battle, no cavalry-like charge that shattered their formations, no engagements or losses on any one day that stood out from the other days. Rather a fairly constant grind, facing one formation after another, shooting them up, loosing some tanks in the process, recovering their wrecks and working desperately to return them to service, a constant flow of tanks out of service, and tanks returning to service, with no big events until the German high command called off the offensive.

Glantz recounts some of this information. But he has not been the source of this research. This is not a criticism per se, as no one person can do it all. Just a recognition that Glantz is a valuable source, but not the fount of all knowledge.

Some other very recent views of Kursk (published since 2000) can be found in "Kursk: The German View" by Steven Newton (a Professor at Deleware State University), and "Prokhorovka - neizvestnoe srazhenie velikoj vojny" by V.N. Zamulin (734 pages just on Prokhorovka! But sadly available only in Russian). Chris Lawrence of the Dupuy Institute is nearing completion (I hope) on a major book on Kursk which promises to re-construct the entire campaign at a detailed level from the daily and weekly fitness and availability reports of the units involved, as drawn from archives on both sides.

To absorb the truth about Kursk we must drink from several of the deepest of historical wells. We will be plumbing for years and decades to come.

[jb]

...after consideration after what you posted, 22 tank comapnies with Bn-Reg Hqs ,recon, and a 4th company does add up to the stats you quoted.
BTW the stats from 3 sources are a true treasure trove of vehicle information. It truly comes in handy for me personaly,and I'm sure for a lot of others here.
If I could ask you, what about the Gepanzert Panzergrenadier companies. How many were there in the SS battalions at citadel? And there composition, I hope you don't mind.

[cbovill]

I could talk about this topic all day - the only thing that would make it better would be to have this discussion at a good pub with great beer!

Despite some sources that suggest that each panzergrenadier regiment was equipped with a full battalion of SPW mounted troops, I can't say for certain that any panzerdivision achieved that level of saturation with APC's. I've got sources that show Gross Deutschland so equipped, but I can't validate it. As for the SS Panzerkorp at Kursk, it seems to be accurate to say that each division had one fully equipped battalion, and that the regiment containing that battalion had much of its regimental level assets similarly equipped. So for example, LSSAH had designated SS Panzergrenadier regiment 2 to be gepanzert with the regimental support companies well equipped with the latest equipment and the 3rd battalion armored - which just happened to be Joachim Peiper's battalion.

If you look at the divisional histories, you'll also see that these gepanzert battalions were often detached from the regiment to serve with the other armored elements of the divisions to form special kampfgruppen.

There are some great divisional history books out there about the elite German divisions. They are multi-volume works that are short on pictures but long on information - especially handy for wargame scenarios since they list exactly how units of the division were broken down into various kampfgruppen and what their missions were. Put that together with what you can find out about what equipment those units had at the time and how much and you've got the most accurate scenario you can hope for given what info is available. So for example, if you wanted to know how the units of the LSSAH were arranged for the battle of Prokorovka against the Russian 29th Tank Corps, these books have that info. Glantz and Nafziger can tell you how the 29th Tank Corps was equipped.

I can get more details tonight.

[jb]

I could talk about this topic all day - the only thing that would make it better would be to have this discussion at a good pub with great beer!

Despite some sources that suggest that each panzergrenadier regiment was equipped with a full battalion of SPW mounted troops, I can't say for certain that any panzerdivision achieved that level of saturation with APC's. I've got sources that show Gross Deutschland so equipped, but I can't validate it. As for the SS Panzerkorp at Kursk, it seems to be accurate to say that each division had one fully equipped battalion, and that the regiment containing that battalion had much of its regimental level assets similarly equipped. So for example, LSSAH had designated SS Panzergrenadier regiment 2 to be gepanzert with the regimental support companies well equipped with the latest equipment and the 3rd battalion armored - which just happened to be Joachim Peiper's battalion.

If you look at the divisional histories, you'll also see that these gepanzert battalions were often detached from the regiment to serve with the other armored elements of the divisions to form special kampfgruppen.

There are some great divisional history books out there about the elite German divisions. They are multi-volume works that are short on pictures but long on information - especially handy for wargame scenarios since they list exactly how units of the division were broken down into various kampfgruppen and what their missions were. Put that together with what you can find out about what equipment those units had at the time and how much and you've got the most accurate scenario you can hope for given what info is available. So for example, if you wanted to know how the units of the LSSAH were arranged for the battle of Prokorovka against the Russian 29th Tank Corps, these books have that info. Glantz and Nafziger can tell you how the 29th Tank Corps was equipped.

I can get more details tonight.

Thanks Chris. The only knowledge I have is that most Gepanzert battalions only had one or two companies as "armored" with very few whole battalions as such.
It seems as though I need to get these books.
Thanks again.
And as a mention to what Mk1 stated about Kursk- it really wasn't one big wave of tanks but a meat grinder of smaller engagements over the course of almost 2 weeks. Also can't forget that a lot of infantry actions were the norm not the exception.

[cbovill]

From Otto Weidinger's book Das Reich vol. III:

SS Infaterie-Regiment "Der Fuhrer" began being reconstituted and also restructured in March 1942 as a Panzergrenadier Regiment. It had already been withdrawn ahead of the rest of the division from the Eastern front back to Fallingbostel training area in Germany. The regiment would continue to be commanded by Obersturmbannfuhrer Kumm. The regiment was to have three battalions:
I/DF with 3 ton Opel Blitz trucks, commanded by SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Opificius
II/DF with 3 ton Opel Blitz trucks, commanded by SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Stadler
III/DF was to be armored and equipped fully with SPW, commanded by SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Horn
The regimental units were also at this time "very well equipped" and "the vehicles provided were precisely in accord with the tables of organization and issuance allocations of the army."

It was intended from the start that III/DF "was primarily intended for joint employment with the tank battalion."

What was left of the rest of the division began returning to Germany in April 1942. In May the division was renamed from SS Division "Reich" to SS Division "Das Reich" but the official renaming of the division type from Infanterie Division Motorized to Panzergrenadier division didn't occur until December 1, 1942 when it was made official and effective as of November 9, 1942 by order of the Fuhrer.

SS Panzergrenadier regiment "Deutschland" under SS Obergruppenfuhrer Heinz Harmel was refitted and equipped with three battalions all in trucks.

2/SS Aufklarungs Abt "DR" was also equipped with SPW's at this time.

...these books are just chock full of great information like this.

Chris

[Mk 1]

I could talk about this topic all day - the only thing that would make it better would be to have this discussion at a good pub with great beer!

Sounds like a man after my own heart!
Shall I look you up next time I'm in Las Vegas?

[cbovill]

Absolutely! If any of you come to Vegas you better look me up. I know a great place where the ladies serving the beer are let's say um, healthy.