Wehrmact '47 Predictions?

[DrBig]

The premise is a bit screwy, because the A-bomb is what killed US tank development. I don't see how it's fair to give the Nazi's belt fed rapid firing 88mm photon torpedo guns & leave the US at a Pershing & Easy Eight

But conservative guesses would be the PAK 44, M-46 Patton, early Centurion/17pdr. Perhaps an accelerated M-47 Patton program?

Super Pershing?
T-44?

[Schwerepunkt]

I think Germany would have the AA MAUS/E100 with twin 88s. Perhaps a JagdMaus with 17cm gun, the Grille weapon carrier with up to a 24cm morser. I really do not anticipate either of the Ratte designs but more mechanized/SP guns of very large caliber and perhaps a Panther III and Tiger III.
Outer space weapons! Come on, the Germans had some fantastic stuff but tasers and lasers are ridiculous.

[jb]

I think Germany would have the AA MAUS/E100 with twin 88s. Perhaps a JagdMaus with 17cm gun, the Grille weapon carrier with up to a 24cm morser. I really do not anticipate either of the Ratte designs but more mechanized/SP guns of very large caliber and perhaps a Panther III and Tiger III.
Outer space weapons! Come on, the Germans had some fantastic stuff but tasers and lasers are ridiculous.

...CRIPES! I'm gonna ask Ritter to make a figure of Captain America to deal with this stuff!!

[DrBig]

dont' forget him

[Schwerepunkt]

...one of my all time favorite German characters. Now, let's face it, in our wargames, we do not go nuclear. If we need caves, especially deep ones, we can turn to him.
As to Iron Man and Captain America, they can only be at one place at a time.
I do think some sci-fi influence might be good, such as Harry Turtledoves books on WW2 with alien invasion. Schwere Gustav destroyed the first alien ship (before she herself was blown to smithereens). Schere

[Ben]

Haven't been interested in WW2 wargaming so far but this topic is really inspiring !

Cheers Ben

[kiasutha]

... Schwere Gustav destroyed the first alien ship (before she herself was blown to smithereens). Schere

Also note- Gustav destroyed the alien ship carrying the invasion fleets entire supply of "nukes"; the only thing that made the entire story line possible.
So back to square one with "1947"- in August 1945, it is "end game". Unless you can come up with a believable scenario that keeps Ami WMD's out of it...

[DrBig]

How about the Pocket Maus project. The name is just a deception for enemy intellegence gathering.

It's a Flakturm with 8 mounts of twin 128mm AA/AT guns, on treads. It would be as big as the platform that carries the space shuttle around. That would be followed by the Koenigs Pocket Maus which would eliminate the 128mm guns, & have 4 Bismarck turrets with twin 15inch naval rifles.

[Donald M. Scheef]

The Pocket Maus sounds interesting. How about a scenario in which one is provided to the Afrika Korps, camouflaged as a pyramid.

With its Bismarck-type mounts, shouldn't the Koenings Pocket Maus be in the 1/2400 scale Micronauts range? What about an Kaiserliche Pocket Maus with 16-inch mounts from H-39? Would their Japanese allies be interested in a Sumo Pocket Maus with triple 18-inch mounts?

Don S.

[DrBig]

I was also thinking of simply putting Germany on treads, & have it roll over & plop itself down on France, Poland, etc.

[Donald M. Scheef]

Getting down to “seriousâ€￾ discussion, let us consider the possible offerings in a Wermacht ’47 series. E-100, Maus, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Tiger II, Panther IIF, and Flakpanther Coelion are already available. In fact, I feel that there is already a good inventory of German vehicle models available for combat in 1947. The allies need 1947-type vehicles more than do the Germans.

In passing, does anyone else think that the E-100 and Maus would have been better with the 12.8 cm Pak 43 L/55 than the shorter 15 cm gun?

The E-100 is the upper end of an entire series of rationalized armored vehicles, identified by their approximate weight. Other members included E-50, E-25, and E-15. From what I have seen, most of these plans existed only for Jagdpanzer forms. For example, Senger and Etterlin have a profile of a 10.5 cm KwK L/63 on the E-25 chassis. For hypothetical purposes, turreted versions could be extrapolated. I would suggest the 10.5 cm KwK for the turreted E-50; the turreted E-25 should mount the 8.8 cm KwK 43; and the turreted E-15 the 7.5 cm KwK L/70. For other Jagdpanzer types, I would suggest one of the 15 cm anti-aircraft guns being developed or a 5.9 inch naval gun for the E-100, the 12.8 cm Pak 43 for the E-50, and the 8.8 cm KwK 43 for the E-15.

Self-propelled gun designs included:
The 8.8 cm PaK 43 auf Panzerjäger 38(d) was an expansion of the widely-employed PzKw 38(t).
The 8.8 cm Pak 43 auf Rheinmetall-Borsig/Ardelt Selbstfahrlaffette 38(d) was an alternate version.
The 8.8 cm PaK 43 auf Krupp/Steyer Selbstfahrlaffette 38(d) was similar to the Rheinmetall-Borsig design, but used components from the Raupenschlepper Ost chassis.
A Grille series (Grille 10, Grille 15, and Grille 17/21; each identified by the weapon size in cm).
A Waffentraeger series (Waffentraeger Grosse I with a 10.5 cm L/28 howitzer, Waffentraeger Grosse II with 8.8 cm PaK 43 L/71, Waffentraeger Grosse II with 12.8 cm/L55 gun, and Waffentraeger Grosse II with 15 cm l/29.5 howitzer) I have been unable to find any Waffentraeger Kleine.

For anti-aircraft defense, the Flakpanzer V with an 8.8 cm gun would be useful.

If GHQ is going to provide advanced armored vehicles for the Germans, it seems fair that the allies also receive some of the vehicles they had planned (and in many cases, produced in post-war years). Here are some of my suggestions:

GHQ has already produced an IS-3 for the Soviets. Other possibilities include the T-44 and T-54 medium tanks. The T-54 was a much better design, although a few years later. This would make a good choice.

The British need a good main battle tank. The A41 Centurion Mk I, II, or III would do very nicely for this role. With the British discarding sabot ammunition, the Mk III with its 20-pounder gun would stand up to the larger German guns. The Brits also made combat engineer and recovery versions of the Centurion.
The A30 Avenger self-propelled anti-tank gun would be nice to have. I have never liked the appearance of the Challenger (GHQ’s UK21) with its high boxy turret.
The Black Prince was a dead-end design and totally outclassed by the Centurion. Nonetheless, it would be interesting in some 1947 scenarios.
The Tank, Heavy Assault, Tortoise (A39) is an intriguing design. With its 32 pdr (3.7-inch) gun, it had excellent firepower but lacked any semblance of mobility. It would have been a worthy match against a JagdTiger.

The US had a large number of projects in hand at the end of the war. Most of these were cancelled at the end of hostilities but could have been produced in large numbers by a war-time American industry. Others actually entered service in small numbers.

GHQ already makes a model of the M24 Chaffee light tank. However, none of the many support vehicles based on the M24 are available:
The M41 Howitzer Motor Carriage mounted a 155 mm howitzer on a modified M24 hull. Sixty had been completed by the end of the war and saw service for some time after. The T16E1, which mounted a 4.5 inch gun on the same mount, was not produced.
The M37 Howitzer Motor Carriage mounted a 105 mm howitzer on a modified M24 hull (similar in concept to the M7 Priest). Over 300 were produced. The T38 Mortar Motor Carriage mounted a 4.2 inch mortar in a similar superstructure, but was not produced. The T96 mounted a breech-loading 155 mm mortar in a different M24-based superstructure.
The M19 Gun Motor Carriage mounted twin 40 mm anti-aircraft guns on a modified M24 light tank hull. Nearly 300 were completed before the end of the war and continued in service for some time after.
The T77E1 and T85E1 were also anti-aircraft gun mounts on M24-style hulls. The T77E1 had six 0.50-inch machine guns in an enclosed mount on a standard tank hull. The T85E1 had four 20 mm cannon in a hull similar to the M19. Neither was produced in quantity.
The T6E1 was a recovery vehicle based on the M24 hull. It did not enter production.
The M75 armored personnel carrier was based on the M41 chassis rather than that of the M24, but design was started in 1945. It would fit in with the concept of 1947 European combat.

Immediately after approval of the Medium Tank M4 (Sherman), the US Army began development of a similar-sized successor. The most promising of these were the T20E3 and the T23E3, both of which were lower than the Sherman with better-angled armor and torsion bar suspension (same size wheels as M18 Hellcat, but six wheels each side). These are good-looking vehicles, appearing much like a reduced M26 Pershing. In fact, the turret of the T23 became the 76 mm gun turret of the M4s. Transmission problems and demand for quantity over quality kept the Sherman in production, but either of these could have been in mass production by mid-1944. If so, the entire range of vehicles based on the Sherman chassis would have been produced on the new chassis. A hypothetical 1947 scenario should include M20 medium tanks and their derivatives.

Examples of vehicles that would have had the T20/T23 hull include equivalents of the following M4 types: Up-armored “Jumboâ€￾ type with 105 mm howitzer, Duplex drive amphibious assault, with dozer blade, with mine exploder rollers, Crocodile flame thrower, with T34, T40, or T72 rocket launcher, M32 tank recovery vehicle, M36 tank destroyer with 90 mm gun (there's no need for a M10 tank destroyer since the T20 series had long 3 inch guns to begin with), M40 Gun Motor Carriage with 155 mm gun, M43 Howitzer Motor Carriage with 8 inch howitzer, T94 Mortar Motor Carriage with 240 mm howitzer, and T30 cargo carrier.
British types on the same hull would have included: Achilles with 17 pdr (or perhaps 20 pdr), Ark, Kangaroo, Firefly, and Scorpion.

GHQ makes a model of the M26 Pershing (T26E3) as it appeared in 1945. If the war had continued, improved versions and a series of associated vehicles would have appeared:
M26E1: Improved T54 90 mm gun; none built because of end of war.
T26E2: Infantry support version with 105 mm howitzer replacing M3 90 mm gun, built in small numbers. (I think the hull and turret could have accommodated a 155 mm howitzer.)
T26E4: Improved T15E2 90 mm gun (about 50% longer than that of M3 gun in M26); 25 built and 1,000 authorized – production halted by end of war.
T26E5: Up-armored assault design; 26 built.
M28A1: Improved M3A1 gun – post-war production version.
T29: Hull lengthened to eight road wheels, armor increased, more powerful engine & transmission and new larger turret with 105 mm T5 gun; only a few produced.
T30: Same hull and turret as T29 but with 155 mm gun T7; few produced.
T32: Hull lengthened to seven road wheels, armor increased and T15E1 gun fitted; more powerful engine & transmission; only a few prototypes built. T32 had cast hull front with machine gun; T32E1 had welded front hull without machine gun.
T34: Same hull and turret as T29 but with 120 mm gun T53 (same as heavy anti-aircraft gun); only a few were produced, but this led to the post-war M103 heavy tank.
T92 Howitzer Motor Carriage: 240 mm howitzer mounted on modified T32; only five built but more planned until end of war.
T93 Gun Motor Carriage: 8 inch gun mounted on same hull as T92; only two built but more planned until end of war.
T31 cargo carrier: Support for T92 and T93 but same size hull as M26; only one built but more planned until end of war.
Eventually, there would have been armored engineer and tank recovery versions of the M26.

Heavy Tank, T28 (Gun Motor Carriage T95): 105 mm T5E1 gun mounted in the hull of a wicked-looking assault vehicle with dual tracks. This was even more massive than the Jagdtiger.

[Gort]

Somebody call for Cap?

[Gort]

Back to the serious stuff.

I think the Wehrmacht '47 idea is a very good one. Full of possibilities, and as noted above, not exactly the first time this has crossed GHQ's mind. But for it to be a viable alt-history there have to be certain fundamental changes to history as we know it :

There is no A-bomb. The Manhattan Project either was not conceived, failed, or is still ongoing pending the technical breakthrough that will produce a viable deployable weapon.

In our reality Germany was defeated prior to the deployment of the A-bomb. Since this version of alt-history has Germany still in the fight in 1947 we must assume that the war has gone very much better for them, particularly in terms of manpower losses (fewer) and access to raw materials (eg. oil, iron ore, manganese, tungsten). The latter would argue for greater retention of captured territory or even larger territorial gains than achieved historically. It's not like we could say that they've been holding the Soviets in front of the Seelow Heights for 2 years.

Possible Scenarios :

In the East :

6th Army is not encircled and destroyed in Stalingrad but instead withdraws in reasonably good order with most of its men and equipment intact. This results in a stronger German force available for operations in 1943.

The germans decide not to become embroiled in costly urban combat and bypass Stalingrad, concentrating instead on capturing and holding the Caucasus oilfields. This deprives the Soviets of most (all?) of their oil and also puts the Germans in position to possibly interfere with lend-lease shipments from Persia.

The Soviets do not have a spy network to inform them about Operation Citadel. The operation succeeds and the Germans retain the strategic initiative for at least another year.

In the Med :

The senior leadership of the Italian navy grow some balls and sweep the Royal Navy out of the Meditterranean (OK, with lots of help from the Luftwaffe). Malta becomes a non-factor in short order. With his supply lines secure Rommel takes the Suez ** CENSORED **. Berlin reinforces success and Rommel exploits into Palestine and Iraq.

Possibility that Spain and Turkey now become active Axis co-belligerants, more so if the Germans are also successful against the Soviets.

In the West :

Hitler and Goering listen to Galland and give priority to the Me262. It is deployed sooner (early '44) and in greater numbers. The Anglo-American bomber offensive is stopped in its tracks. The Germans regain aerial superiority over Germandy and most of the continent. The Luftwaffe does not suffer the massive attrition of aircrew that historically occurred. German industrial output increases substantially.

The Normandy invasion fails. (assumes it takes place as scheduled) Carrying on from the previous paragraph, the Germans are able to contest the Allied aerial superiority over Normandy to a significant degree. Allied interdiction of German movements is less effective. The Germans are able to pose a serious threat to the naval vessels providing gunfire support.

Some other what-ifs :

If the Normandy invasion fails, does the US abandon the Germany First policy and concentrate on defeating Japan? Is Japan still in the war in 1947?

All the major combatents in WW2 maintained large stockpiles of chemical weapons. Would the Germans have used chemical warheads on the V-3 (New York rocket) or as a payload on their long range jet bombers (New York bomber) to attack the Soviets, UK, or the US? What kind of retaliation, if any, would the Germans have faced? Would the US have used chemical weapons against the Japanese (instead of the non-existant A-bomb) to either compel surrender or as a prelude to invasion?

Were biological weapons a possibility in 1947?

If things go well for the Germans in Europe is an "Invasion America" scenario a possibility?

If Germany is defeated in May '45, and the A-bomb doesn't exist, are the Americans (and the UK/CW) still fighting Japan in 1947? If so, what if Uncle Joe wants a dacha on the Cote d'Azur or a retirement villa in Spain? Who needs the Germans when you could have Patton vs. Zhukov!

Lastly, I found this map on the internet. One heck of a what-if.





regards

Steve

[lacamas]

Have you ever read the book Luftwaffe Victorious by mick spic


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