Missing ships for Jutland

[IRISH]

I want to Thank GHQ for the great ships they produce. I know there are other manufacturers but I am partial to GHQ. The biggest and most well known battle of the Great War is still lacking ships by GHQ to represent the full opportunity to battle it out.
While some ships could be used to model others some others can not. Where I list number of ships I am refering only to the battle and not of the class. I hope some of these will make it into the the 2009-10 release schedule.

If you would like to see any of these please post a reply so Don can incorporate them into his Wish list.

Great Britain
BB Neptune ( could use the Colossus )
ACR Hampshire ( Devonshire Class )
ACRs Minotaur, Defense & Shannon
ACRs Black Prince & Duke of Edinburgh
CLs Birkhead & Chester
CL Calliope
CLs Caroline, Comus & Cordelia
CLs Birminghan & Nottingham
CLs Dublin & Southampton ( Chatham Class )
CLs Active & Fearless
CL Blanche
CLs Boadicea & Bellona
CLs Canterbury & Constance ( Cambrian Class )
DDs Tipperary, Faulknor & Broke
DDs Kempenfelt & Marksman
DDs "I" Class 6 ships
DDs "K" Class 19 ships
DDs "L" Class 4 ships
DDs Talisman Class 2 ships

Imperial German Navy
CL Regensburg ( Graudenz Class )
CLs Wiesbaden & Frankfurt
CL Stettin & Stuttgart ( Konigsburg Class )
CL Rostock ( Karlsruhe Class )
CL Frauenlob ( Gazelle Class )
DDs G-7 Class 4 Ships
DDs V-1 Class 6 Ships
DDs V-25 Class 5 Ships
DDs S-13 Class 8 Ships
DDs G-101 Class 4 Ships
DDs V-186 Class 2 Ships
DDs G-37 Class 6 Ships ( could use S-53 )
DDs V-43 Class 4 Ships ( could use S-53 )
DDs S-31 Class 5 Ships ( could use S-53 )
DDs G-85 Class 8 Ships ( could use V-67 )

[DrBig]

When you say you want to fight Jutland, do you mean every ship?

[ACWBill]

That list includes every ship. However, for starters, some of the ships most heavily involved like Black Prince, Duke of Edinburgh, Birkenhead, Nottingham, Birmingham and Shannon on the Brit side and Frankfurt, Wiesbaden, Regensburg and Rostock on the German side would be priorities. I converted a Colossus to Neptune with very little effort so that one is not a big priority IMHO. I am running a "Clash of the Battle Cruisers" game at Rapier in Jacksonville this weekend using the MICRONAUTS the Game rules with ships stats for WWI and some minor tweaking. Nottingham, Birmingham, Birkenhead, Rostock, Frankfurt, Wiesbaden and Regensburg were all present. I have had to use heavily converted Panzershiffe models for these ships.

[Extra Crispy]

My gaming club has gamed Jutland (or variants of it). We took a fast-play set of rules called "Dreadnought" and computerized them. Voila! Virtually no record keeping! All you have for each ship is a very small data line listing armor and gun types (more for your info than anything else). Then there are 4 boxes which you mark off as you take damage. The boxes show you your maximum speed at each damage level. The computer does everything else, including, if you like, the dice rolls.

We played a game with about 80 ships per side, 3 players per side. We started at around 11:00 am and had played 30 or so turns by 6pm (with a break for lunch in between).

I will be running this game again in Chicago on August 2nd - if you;re interested in trying it out let me know (warning: I do not use GHQ ships).

[saxophone]

I know I'm straying off topic here, but I always thought one of the best ways to run a miniatures game would be to have a laptop for the GM, and separate displays for each side. As you said, the laptop keeps track of everything, and each side is only aware of the state of his own ships. However, I would fear losing some of the equipment at a game convention.

[Urrgok]

Do you guys think that the GHQ WW2 Micronauts rules can be used for WW1 battles? What would one need, apart from appropriate rosters?

[Mikee]

Regarding Urrgok's question about WW I 4rules, I've given it some thought. In general, it seems to me that in fleet actions (in particular), some consideration would have to be made for poor communications, and the fact that command control of battle squadrons was poor. I read somewhere that English battleships had to follow their flagships. So, assume the enemy is ";crossing your T;" First, your lead ships have to make contact with tyhe fleet commander (1 turn?) during which you have to keep sailing towards the middle of the enemy line. Then , the commander has to decide what to do, and his radio room has to transmit it to you(a second turn??), then, the division commander of your lead division has to get the message from the radio room, tell his division, and begin the maneuver (how long). Then, the other ships of the division follow their leader, turning at the same location that his ship did. Maybe the following divisions would also have to do the same, unless the fleet cdr. gave them separate orders.

In the North Sea, I understand that only the Germans had the "battle turn away" and some night fighting capability. If so, this would have to be factored into the rules. It seems that evolutions in multiple ship actions would be slower, and ships caught in disadvantageous situations would not be able to get out of them as easily as was later the case.

I've always wondered what would happen if Adm. Beatty had formed up his fleet on the starboard side squadron at Jutland, instead of the port side. The Germans would have crossed the British "T" and beat up on his lead ships. With maneuver restrictions thrown in, would the Germans have chewed up several more English ships?

Mikee

[ed*b]

As I am not familiar with the GHQ WW2 Micronaut rules, I can't specifically comment. However, there are some very significant differences in communications, equipment and fire control between WW1 and WW2. If the rules don't accommodate those differences, you would not be getting a good simulation.

Most of the capital ships in WW1 had very limited elevation for main turrets - frequently 13 to 20 degrees - that was the major limiting factor on range. Between the wars, a key reconstruction was to increase the possible elevation (e.g. the British changed all their BB and older BC from 20 to 30 degrees).

Fire control quality and capability, plus the ranging procedures (ladder or half-salvo) varied considerably between different navies and even between different ships in the same navy. The program of installing director control and ** CENSORED ** fire control computers took about 5 years for the Royal Navy, and some older BC were only getting good fire control in early 1916. By WW2 all capital ships had pretty equivalent ** CENSORED ** and optical equipment for fire control and the differences between navies were in radar.

Intership communication and coordination for concentrating fire were virtually non-existent in WW1, so there were significant problems when ships ranged on the same target. By WW2, coloured shells, procedures for concentration and master control of fire removed many of those limitations.

In WW1, there were much more dangerous problems with flash and handling of propellant, and even with the storage of propellant. There were many larger ships lost through internal explosions (both in battle and in harbour). This was a key factor for the Germans at Dogger Bank and for the British at Jutland. By WW2 these situations were much improved.

Also, in WW1 there were very critical problems with the bursting charges in British shells. It was estimated that at least half the APC shells were ineffective hits because they exploded before penetrating armour. That could be manually added, but failing to account for that weakness will seriously unbalance scenarios.

After preview, I see the word a n a l o g has been censored. Pretty weird.

[tstockton]

ed*b,

Look at the first four letters of your "censored" word... that's why it was deleted. A certain island in the Pacific in WW II often gets censored for the same reason: Guadal can al.

I guess it's a part of the price we pay in a effort to delete foul language on this Forum. I've gotten used to it...

BTW -- very nice an al ysis of the differences between WW I and WW II navies!! (Almost did it myself! )

Regards,
Tom Stockton