'Reverse' Jutland

DrBig · Post by **DrBig** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:04 pm

the battle that could have been:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/scarborough.htm

Just found the book I first heard about this...

At 0515hrs, the 16th of December, 1914, contact was made between the lead elements of Vice-Admiral Warrrender's 2nd Battle Squadron and Admiral von Ingenohl's High Sea Fleet (85 ships) minus Hipper's battlecruiser squadron (27 ships)...14 German battleships vs. 6 British...dubbed the 'Dream Scenario', the opportunity to give Germany parity in capital ships.

von Ingenohl didn't want to chance it & turned tail. After Tirpitz found out, he later wrote "Von Ingenohl had the fate of Germany in the palm of his hand. I boil with inward emotion whenerver I think of it."

The OOB for capital ships is:

Beatty-Lion, Queen Mary, Tiger & New Zealand
Warrender-KGV, Ajax, Centurion, Orion, Monarch & Conqueror

Hipper-Seydlitz, Moltke, Von der Tann, Derfflinger & Bluecher
Von Ingehohl- not too sure...if anyone can provide that, I'd appreciate it

DrBig · Post by **DrBig** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:20 am

think I got it...

Von Ingenohl-Nassau, Westfalen, Rheinland, Posen, Helgoland, Ostfriesland, Thueringen, Oldenburg, Kaiser, Friedrich der Grosse, Kaiserin, Koenig Albert, Prinzregent Luitpold & Grosser Kurfuerst

Mikee · Post by **Mikee** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:08 am

DrB.

I've been interested in the same scenario for decades, & recently worked out similar info from a couple of Jutland history books. In addition to your list, the German Fleet included eight pre-dreadnought BBs, two armored cruisers, 7 CLs (i have names for four of them), and 54 DDs I don't kn ow if any of the 54 DDs were actually with Hipper, however.

Besides the BBs, Warrender had four armored cruisers, four light cruisers, and supposedly only seven DDs. I don't know about those DDs; seems a bit light, but that's what I gleaned out of the books.

About 30 years ago I tried to run a wargame along those lines; part of a hoped for "what if" WW I campaign. Unfortunately, the Brits turned away, laid smoke, and refused to cooperate. Had to change the game to get them to play.

Mikee

DrBig · Post by **DrBig** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:39 am

Mikee wrote: Had to change the game to get them to play.

Well, maybe not too much. I was just reading about this in Massie's book & when Ingenohl turned around at 0545, the Brit BB's were just 10 miles away from his screen. If he had hesitated for just a bit longer out of concern for Hipper, he would have soon known what he was up against & charged. Remember, the Brits were expecting to run into Hippers battlecruisers, not the main body, which they thought was still in port.

How did your game turn out?

Mikee · Post by **Mikee** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:11 am

Actually, I can't remember, any more. must have been fairly boring, since I generally remember the fun games.

mIKEE

hauptgrate · Post by **hauptgrate** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:23 pm

Look in A Naval History of World War One by Halpern and Castles of Steel by Massie for info on potential encounters. I am in the process of moving so my books are packed but I think the encounter is discussed in one or both of those books. There was another sometime in 1915 -- or it might have been the same. Another cool possibility was in 1918 when the HSF almost ran into a Norway convoy escorted by the US battleship squadron. If I remember correctly, Moltke stripped a turbine and the HSF went home. Several years ago I played this out on the assumption of potential British reinforcements for the outgunned Americans.

One way I have done potential North Sea encounters is to break up both German and British fleets into smaller squadrons and task forces and feed them into battle piecemeal -- yes, I know it is historically unlikely but it avoids the massive "all at once" battle.

Actually, my favorite area for WWI naval is the Med -- Brits, French, Italians, Austrians, Greeks, Turks, Russian Black Sea Fleet, etc. Very cool selection of ships and both historical and "what if" possibilities. Hopefully, some day GHQ will include these nationalities in their GW ship line. Currently, I use 1/6000 scale by Figurehead but they are beginning to get hard to see!

DrBig · Post by **DrBig** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:52 pm

hauptgrate wrote:yes, I know it is historically unlikely but it avoids the massive "all at once" battle.

I wouldn't get too hung up about historical unlikely situations regarding this topic. The reason big fleet actions were happening was that the Brits had the German naval code book, so they always knew when to come out. That was an amazing piece of luck to have a Russian diver get that code book from a sunken German ship. An incredible long shot. I think a royal flush has better odds.

Take away that small detail & you can justify any naval action you want.

For their next war, the Germans should just assume their codes have been broken.

Pitfall · Post by **Pitfall** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:21 pm

DrBig wrote: For their next war, the Germans should just assume their codes have been broken.

Ha! They've got the worst luck with their "Top Secret" codes, don't they.

hauptgrate · Post by **hauptgrate** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:15 am

I have always pondered setting up a "scenario generator" for the North Sea during WWI. I envision a map of the area divided into zones. Each player would draw an objective card listing critical areas to defend and/or attack, they would divide up their fleets on the basis of these objectives, then zone by zone tabletop battles could be fought out. Again, I have pondered this concept for several years -- actually about 20 -- but have never even moved the project to the back burner, not to mention the front. I did a little work on the same idea for the Med several years back but horrible, terrible things like my wife, kids, and job interfered with further development...

DrBig is absolutely right about the stunning intelligence coup concerning the German codes. If one was to do something my idea above, intelligence could be factored in -- on a card draw or die roll maybe one side or the other would learn of a specific enemy objective and/or specific deployment for certain zones. My idea is not necessarily a "campaign game" although with proper development it could become one, but just a way to allow player choice to generate interesting -- and not necessarily balanced -- tabletop battles. Too many scearios in many typed of games have that "cookie cutter" have-to-start-off-balanced approach. Happens very rarely in the real world.

DrBig · Post by **DrBig** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:38 am

I don't know if you know about this series, but perhaps it may give you ideas for your project?

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameJutland.php

I don't have it, but seeing that it has both operational & tactical maps, maybe it has scenario food for thought?

tstockton · Post by **tstockton** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:55 pm

Gentlemen,

Several years ago, I really "got in to" Avalanche Press' Great War at Sea series. I have most (but not all) of the games they produced. And I was very impressed by two things in particular:

(1) The counters for the ships are almost of "miniature quality" -- those guys are good!!

(2) The extensive number of scenarios, both at tactical and campaign level. They made no bones about trying to achieve "balanced" scenarios, but really concentrated on the historical aspects. And they provided a "point value" for each of the ships, so I believe it would be relatively easy to construct "do-it-yourself" scenarios, based on equal opposing forces.

The only downside I saw was their cost -- in my opinion, they are NOT cheap. But to my mind, they are well worth the money I paid to acquire them.

Occasionally, one can find them on eBay -- might be able to pick them up at a reduced price. Or you can check out their website...

Regards,
Tom Stockton

DrBig · Post by **DrBig** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:06 pm

Re-reading Chapter 17 in Massie, I need to correct myself. There were three German naval codebooks at the beginning of WW1, & by the end of 1914, British codebreakers had all three

All three came from siezed or sunken German ships. The frist was captrured from a merchantman by Australia; the second from a scuttled lt. cruiser (Magdeburg) in the baltic, & the third was netted by fishermen in the North Sea...it was in a lead box that a German skipper through overboard from his sinking ship.

The German naval HQ even had reports that the Brits probably had their codebooks...but due to their love of their superb wireless instruments, simply went into denial that the codes were compromized. The Germans were well into 1917 before they even started to wonder why the British fleet always happened to show up in front of their surface & Uboat deployments.

Massie does agree that big battles like Dogger Bank & Jutland would not have happened if not for the broken codes. Nor, later, would the U-boats have been defeated.

It's amazing that during most of the 20th century, whether it be WW1, WW2, or the Cold War, one side or the other usually had a clear picture of their adversaries' naval intentions.

DrBig · Post by **DrBig** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:54 am

Another quick source for naval scenarios would be the products of Ben King's "Small War at Sea" system. Goshdarn interesting hypotheticals plus the usual historicals. But this guy is a real tease. I see that he is still active, but it's impossible to find a consolidated source online for his publications. I've heard he is primarily a convention guy.

Wargames over in PA (iirc) used to carry all of his stuff, but now it's gone. Anyone have a source?