Wehrmact '47 Predictions?

[zaevor2000]

Heck while we're at at why don't we just get a Marvel Superheroes pack and a DC Superheroes pack

[zaevor2000]

Of course this will be followed by the monsters pack of Godzilla, King Kong, Gamra, Moby Dick, Cthulhu, and the Giant Squid....and let's not forget Ultra Man...

[zaevor2000]

I regret having made the previous 2 posts.

MOD please delete them if you feel they are not appropriate to this thread

(even though some might argue they are every bit as valid an assumption as the Germans possessing the ability to produce the WM47 vehicles out of factories that were destroyed and were already occupied by the allied forces at the time-Germany simply did not possess the economic infrastructure to build any of these forces to say nothing of the total lack of fuel and oil to run them on since those components had been destroyed/occupied as well)...

Also the practical limit had already been reached with the Tiger tanks. As it was there are bridges about every 2 miles in Germany. Very few could support the Tiger2 and JgTiger. It also rains in Germany roughly a third of the year which makes the ground very soft and muddy and WILL NOT SUPPORT the weight of such vehicles as the Maus and E100. The Maus and the E100 can't leave the roads and can't cross bridges which leaves them pretty much stuck at the factory they were assembled at which is exactly why they were found there...they couldn't go anywhere else without getting stuck in the mud or collapsing a bridge a few miles from where they were built...

Sorry to be a little harsh and the MOD may delete this post and the 2 above if desired and no hard feelings on my part.

I believe many of us have made our feelings clear on the matter...at this point it's just beating a dead horse.

Frank

[dougeagle]

Gort-
I like all of those ideas there.
Perhaps another option would be that Hitler would listen to his advisors and possibly keep the Panther tank as well as all StuG and Panzer IV series models with making a modification to the frontal hull by sloping it to the same angle as the Panther, thus increasing the armour thickness without adding additional weight. The Tiger 1 series would also go through a similar change by making the front hull sloped as well as an upgraded 88 barrel. The Tiger II, E100, Maus would not have to be made at all. The Jadgpanzer, Hetzer could become the premiere tank hunters put into Panzerjager battalions while the StuG, Panzer IV and Panther series tanks would be the premiere battle tanks with the Tiger tanks being the main heavy tank.

Just a though

[ZMONSTER]

The Panthers would be the Panther II, with the range finder and 88 mm gun. The Autobaun bridges might have been able to support some of the heavier tanks.

If events had altered the outcomes of the Stalingrad battles in 1942, and the Kursk Offensive in 1943 for the Germans, then the Soviets would still be on the defensive, and possibly falling back. This would reduce the strain on the Luftwaffe.

The eventual product of the Me262 and other jet aircraft, would eventually lead to a long range jet bomber that could reach Russian factories that were moved beyond the Ural Mountains.

[Donald M. Scheef]

Has there been any consideration of including aircraft along with the ground forces. I would suggest the following:

Me262 twin jet fighter: This was actually in service during the war. It certainly would have continued and been effective had the war lasted longer.

Ar234 twin-jet bomber/reconnaissance: This is another aircraft that saw actual service during the war.

Hs132 ground attack: This aircraft did not see combat but several examples had been completed at the end of the war.

Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star: This aircraft was entering mass production in the last year of the war. If the war had continued, it certainly would have seen combat. It would also be useful for Korean War scenarios.

Republic F-84 Thunderjet: Slightly later and initially less successful than the P-80, this aircraft could have been forced into service in 1947.

North American FJ (straight-wing F-86): A contemporary of the P-80, this aircraft became much more successful when given swept wings and shifted from carrier to land bases. The '47 version would have had straight wings.

Gloster Meteor twin-engine fighter: These aircraft entered active service at the end of the war but saw limited combat. The '47 version would have been the F3 or F4 versions with bubble canopy, improved aerodynamics and more powerful Derwent engines.

de Havilland Vampire single-engine fighter: Actually intended for experimental use only at the beginning, this design proved adaptable to a variety of roles.

Don S.

[DrBig]

Looking at the premise & comments posted on the other thread, the line won't be grounded in any kind of thought out alternate history...it will just be pure fantasy...stuff that looked cool on the drawing boards & will sell minis. Which is fine...that's not criticism...but all the discussion on resources, alliances, maps, bridges, ground pressure, etc. will have no bearing on the line.

I will certainly be using M47's if GHQ doesn't make the T42...and Centurion Mk.III's

[Donald M. Scheef]

With all due respect to the Lancaster, B-17, and B-29; these aircraft don't fit in with the Wermacht '47 theme. All three saw significant combat during the real war. Also, these were heavy bombers. To go along with Microarmor, we should be concentrating on fighter and attack aircraft. The B-36 fits in time but is another heavy bomber.

I would really like to see the P-51D, but in the regular WWII Microarmor range, not Wermacht '47.

The P-80 belongs here. The F-86, however is significantly later. A straight-wing version (FJ) fits in time, but a swept-wing F-86 shouldn't show up until the Korean War. (Not that I would mind being able to do Korean War scenarios, but it's not right for 1947.)

Similar comments apply to the MiG-15 and the even later MiG-17. If you want Soviet aircraft for the Wermacht '47 line, you should be looking at the MiG-9 Fargo and Yak-17 Feather.

Don S.

[dougeagle]

One thing that I would like to know is what type of weapons the infantry are going to have?
Are they going to have a combination of the StG44 and the MP44 with rifles mixed in?

I'm just really curious to this part...

[tstockton]

Just for sake of discussion...

Weren't many -- if not most -- of the early Russian jets heavily influenced by captured German technology? So... would they have been available at all?

Like I said, just for sake of discussion...

Regards,
Tom Stockton

[DrBig]

Well, Corsairs & Mustangs did the early ground work in Korea...so I guess the better ground pounder Thunderbolt & Typhoon would still have a job in 1947.

[Schwerepunkt]

...it is unfortunate. You can stay with the tanks in the WW2 timeline. Having a WM47 does not have to delete the fun of gaming for anyone. It can just be agreed in advance that they cannot be used in a particular battle.
I plan to collect (I do not wargame) the heaviest, largest Deutschen Panzer Division that I can. I have MAUS, E-100, Tiger VIB, Tiger V, and Panther IIG tanks, and the JagdTiger TD. Whatever GHQ produces will be used to augment the force. I congratulate the people at GHQ for making these new models. Schwere

[ZMONSTER]

Had the war gone differently as we discuss. The stopgap measures would probably have been thought of differently or not at all, such as the JadgTiger II TD and other Tank Destroyers. As these models were designed because they used less precious metals and ball bearings.

If the air war favored the Germans, then tank production and special materials production, as well as fuel production, would not have been as effected. Then regular production of Armored Vehicles would have continued, developed in response to the enemy threat.

If the Russian factories beyond the Ural Mountains were bombed, then Russian Tank production and development could have been slowed.

I wonder where our military would be today, if the war had been lengthened by 4 or 5 years. I think the outcome would have been the same; it would have just been harder and longer.

Germany's manpower pool was only so big, with almost no prospects of a major increase. There are several possibilities: Rommel could have gotten the new Arab Ba'ath Party to bring the Arabs into the war on the side of Hitler; or possibly Germany could have found a way to split the Russian Reds from any remaining White sympathies.

[Mk 1]

Weren't many -- if not most -- of the early Russian jets heavily influenced by captured German technology? So... would they have been available at all?

The early Russian jets, the Yak-15, Yak-17, and MiG-9 were based on original Soviet airframe designs, but used engines copied from Junkers Jumo and BMW. These were straight-winged jets of rather conventional construction, the Yak-15 being little more than a Yak-3 piston-engined fighter with the engine replaced (it was also the lightest jet fighter ever to see operational service).

The MiG-9 was notably faster (by almost 100mph), and so was considered to be the better design. It had heavy cannon armament (a high-velocity NL 37mm and two high-velocity, rapid-firing NS 23mms). It was also notably less stable, particularly at altitude, and particularly when maneuvering. So it was often assigned to frontal aviation units for ground-attack roles. But it's poor flight handling characteristics meant it had a tendancy to crash and kill its pilots -- no ejection seats in service yet, and it ain't easy to bail-out at 500mph+.

In both the Yak and MiG cases, the planes were plagued by the same issues as the German late-war jets. German jet engines were operational disasters. For all of their superior flying characteristics (and the Me-262 was a magnificent flyer), it was nearly impossible to keep them in action. 10 hours is not a sufficient life span for an engine in high-tempo military operations.

The later MiG-15 used copies (and further developments) of the British Nene jet engines. The US used the British Whittle jet engine for the Bell P-59 and the Lockheed P-80 (early versions). The British jet engines were far more suited to realistic operational use.

[DrBig]

ZMONSTER & Mk.1 hit the nail right on the head. The late war superweapons were an outgrowth of Germany's hopeless raw materials situation...caused by Germany's increasing isolation...caused by Germany losing battle after battle on land and sea. Had they been in a better strategic position in 1945, with the better material imports that go along with that scenario...superweapon R&D would have been less necessary. It would make more sense to game with Leopard I's in '47.

The Me262 engines had to be designed as disposable because they lacked certain imported metals to give them longevity. Late war German armor was brittle for the same reason. AT ammo...also inadequate.