Romanian Command Pack

Harlan · Post by **Harlan** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:50 am

Is the R-2 tank an indenious design or is a Romanian designation for an imported tank?

piersyf · Post by **piersyf** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:08 am

The R2 was the Romanian name for the export version of the Skoda S.IIa (LT vz 35), also used by Germany as the 35T. Later modified as a TD with a 76.2mm gun.

P

Harlan · Post by **Harlan** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:09 am

Thanks P

Harlan

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:09 am

I recently found out that there are a couple external differences between the export model and the Pz35t that might be noticed if you look close & know about them...
But by 1942, the Romanians had also received some "real" 35t's from Germany as replacements, so it hardly matters. With my eyes, I wouldn't worry about it in 1941...

To me, the Stug.G seems a really strange choice for 1942 Romania.

My info says the Romanians didn't get their first Stugs. (of any model) until November of 1943; mostly in early 1944.
If this represents the "just pre-Stalingrad debacle" line-up, Pz.4 would be the natural running mate to the Mark-3's; about 11 of each were with 1st. armored div. at that time.
They also had a battery each of Pak 38 and 40 (with German tractors) that would help...

BTW-for anyone interested in Romania- "Third Axis/Fourth Ally" was published last year as a paperback edition at a much more "reasonable" price.
I bought mine online about a month ago for $30 US...
For what it's worth,
JimR.

piersyf · Post by **piersyf** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:39 am

Yeah, I had seen that the Romanians had made some local modifications to the 35T, but I couldn't find what they were. Didn't think they were likely to be major. As to StuG IIIG's for Romania in 1942, that'd be a neat trick, seeing as according to my refs the German army didn't get them until December 1942.

P

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:42 pm

kiasutha wrote: But by 1942, the Romanians had also received some "real" 35t's from Germany as replacements, so it hardly matters. With my eyes, I wouldn't worry about it ...

Might be worth noting that the Romanians themselves didn't worry about the differences, either. They took in the Pz35ts, and called them R2s just like their original Czech production tanks.

My info says the Romanians didn't get their first Stugs. (of any model) until November of 1943; mostly in early 1944.

Yep. I also have the impression that any StuGs that they did receive in late 1943 did not see any service until well in to 1944. The only tanks that the Romanians used in combat in 1943 were second-hand Pz38ts (in their cavalry divisions) and some captures Soviet tanks (including a few M3 Stuarts and maybe even some M3 Lees) in the Crimea.

If this represents the "just pre-Stalingrad debacle" line-up, Pz.4 would be the natural running mate to the Mark-3's; about 11 of each were with 1st. armored div. at that time.

I have seen sorces that dis-agreed on whether they had any actual Pz4s or not. Seems that many of the Pz3s they got were the Pz3N model (with the 75mmL24 gun). This seems to confuse some sources about whether they were really Pz3 or Pz4 tanks.

They also had a battery each of Pak 38 and 40 (with German tractors) that would help...

Do you know when they started receiving the Pak38/97 75mm guns? I had the impression that they were coming on line in 1942.

Also worth mentioning (again, and sad to say) that the 47mm AT gun that comes in the pack is not the 47mm AT gun used by the Romanians. At least from what I can see, the combat command comes with the same French APX 47mm gun that is in the Romanian AT gun pack. This is the 47mm AT gun used by the French army in 1940. It looks nothing like the French export 47mm AT gun the Romanians actually used. The Romanians used the French Schneider 47mm gun, an entirely different gun that was not adopted by the Armee Francais.

Le sigh.

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:09 pm

Mk1 & P:
Other than local "tinkering", there were a couple "factory" differences between the R2 and the 35t. One was the turret rear- The "export" had a verticle angle instead of the flat plate. The other difference was in the engine deck; I would have to "dig" for specifics.
Agreed, the Romanians classed both as R2...

As for the Panzer 4's- the Romanians say that they got a dozen, as well as 12 Mark 3N's. 11 of each delivered to First Armored on 17 October; with one each held at home for training purposes. They are stated to have formed one cpy. in each of the R2 battalions; pretty hard to do with only 11 tanks...
The Mk-4's are clearly stated to be G model- (which might include so-called F2, I guess)
not the F1's GHQ lists in the catalogue. No "short 4's" are mentioned anywhere.
The Hungarians got 22 in early 1942- maybe this has led someone to confusion...?

Pak97/38- I'd have to look for more, but I can give you this quote from "Third Axis"-

"the Germans delivered 5 or 6 of the promised Pak97/38 75mm AT guns to each division in October(42)." so- it seems everybody (exept maybe 1st.A.?) got a battery of them.

For the Pak 38 and 40- 9 of each were delivered, along with 18 SdKfz 10 and 11 tractors. "accepted by the divisional anti tank companies" (again, 1st.Armored)
(edited to correct numbers given-sorry!)

Stug.G use- Agreed, delivery to German units started in December of 42.
The chart in "the Book" shows the Romanians got the first 4 tracks in Nov.43 !

Yah, same French 47mm ATG's again. I just decided to ignore that & live with it for now.
Better to buy the French pack to get the Laffleys instead of exess numbers of Sd 11's...
Besides, for beating a dead horse, there's always "Wehrmacht 47", for crying out loud...

Ah well. 3AM again...We need to "disect" the Honved like this sometime...

JimR.