A Wehrmacht 47 World!

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spock1
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A Wehrmacht 47 World!

Post by spock1 »

I've seen and read all the back and forth on the subject and you know, it could have happened that way.
Remember guys, the victors write the histories of most conflicts and they do tend to leave out how close things really where.
Nothing takes place in vaccumn, on even on the scale of a World War!
Imagine it's late 1941 and the Japanese hit us as planned at Pearl Harbor.
We declare war the Japanese and the Germans don't declare war on us .
So we pore everything we can into the war against Japan.
But it takes time to build the ships, planes, tanks, materials, & man power to confront them
We are already sending lend-lease to British, knowing full well that the Germans are sharing ideas and tactics with the Japanese.
We even help the Russians with lend-lease, knowing full well that such aid will keep the Germans busy while we deal with the Japanese.
From the British and Russian experiences with our equipment, we learn what does and does not work, and make the corrections and/or modifications needed.
Think of the Alternative WWII as a kind of Cold War and you get the picture.
We let others fight some of the battles, while we fight what we fell is the main event to us at the time.
Yes, Coral Sea and Midway happen and go as in real world, we still need time to buildup and take things to the Japanese.
And the A-Bomb does get built, knowing how the Germans are working on it and how quickly we are finding out how the Japanese will die to the last man to stop us.
Think Cold War again here too as reference.
But, here's the kicker, we are poring all our resources in to beating the Japanese, but not paying attention to what they are doing in Korea.
We all know the Japanes army A-bomb project failed, but not the one the Japanese Navy was building!
They tested the device and it worked, but building and testing device and making a deliverable weapon are sometimes worlds apart.
But in this case no, even with a cruder, bigger bomb, they could have put it on one on thier big subs and sail close to San Francisco and denotated it.
Now we couild not have responded to this attack for several months after the August 6 and 9 bombings by us on them, since by then we had used up most of bomb making supplies in three bombs (the New Mexico test and the war drops).
The Invasion of Japan proper would have taken place, without worring about the Russians coming in since they are still tied up with the Germans!
Now the Germans see and observe of all of this and redouble thier effects to build the bomb, but it takes time to do.
All the while the War goes on.
The newer, better German tanks and Jet aircraft get built, the latter to shot down our B29s when the need finally arises.
We, on the other hand, built the late war Shermans, Pershings, etc., as do the British with their late war tanks.
The Russians, too, build their late war tanks, from that same battlefiled experience against the Germans on the East Front, where it will take tham a lot longer to get to Berlin now, if ever.
So when the Japanese are finally beaten, in what was a very bloody affair from the real world experience, we're at 1947.
Where the Germans have finally gotten tried of our support of the British and Russians though lend-lease and declared war on us!
You have stalemate on the A-bomb, we have it but can't get to them, the Germans are't quite there yet, but have the means fo deliver it vis-a-vi the follow-ons to the V2 Rockets.
Which they can easlly fill with bio and chemical weapons, thanks to the help they received from the Japanese.
Which we shoot down with our advanced radar and air defence systems.
So, again, we are faced with invasion of main land Europe, but late into 1946 or early 1947.
My point here is that things will tend to develope as planned, just not in the same manner and/or time as in the real world due to the altered circumstances.
But,most of all, remember it's only a game.
What's the fun of replaying the same battle over and over again, if once in a while, you can't take a side trip into what might have been and say to your self, what a dark, dark world we could have had to deal with!
It's my humble opinion, so do ith what you may! :wink:
Last edited by spock1 on Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ritter
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Post by Ritter »

I cannot help it...

...yawn...

TR

jb
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Post by jb »

...What would have Happened had Napoleon won Waterloo? A Balloon air force with A-bombs or maybe some 1 ton Grenadiers are biologically bred that can't cross bridges without breaking them :lol:
Sci-Fi , Man, pure Sci-Fi!
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tstockton
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Post by tstockton »

"What if's" or "alternative histories" or whatever you call them can be fascinating. I have to admit, I'm a big fan of Harry Turtledove -- he spins a pretty good yarn...

spock1, I'm curious -- I've never heard about the Japanese Navy working on an A-bomb. Did that really happen -- or is this just one of the premises you've postulated for the "Wermacht '47 world"?

My interest here is definitely piqued -- I'm looking forward to see where "all of this" goes!

Regards,
Tom Stockton
"Well, I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones. You sure you got today's codes?"

-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"

Panzerleader71
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Post by Panzerleader71 »

""What if's" or "alternative histories" or whatever you call them can be fascinating. "

I agree. I am often surprised at the indifference this line is getting from the members of the forum. Certainly, I feel there are holes in current lines that should be filled, and I am confident that GHQ will will get around to filling them. However, as a business they do need to expand the existing lines that they offer, they must feel that there is enough people out there that are interested in the "what-if" scenario to make this a lucrative line.

Personally, I have been thinking about putting together a very early WWIII game, and some of these new products might just fit into that campaign idea.
The moral high ground: A good place to site your artillery.

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Post by Hugewally »

I think its a big to-do over nothing. While so many play games that are based on historical events and game pieces, no matter what, all the games played with miniatures are truly 'what ifs' anyway.
Martin

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Post by piersyf »

True enough, hugewally, and I don't think any of the serious 'historical' types would complain if all their favourites were already available. Problem is, they aren't. Not even close. Matida 1's are cute, were used in combat, but are only relevant for a very short period. The Lloyd carrier, on the other hand, was manufactured in its thousands, used right through the war, yet is not available as a mini and not likely to be (didn't see it on the wish list). I have to go through H&R for them. They were the defacto carrier for 6pds (NOT the canadian 15cwt). I need 36 Lloyds for my Brits. Talk about companies interested in sales. I look at GHQ first, and if they don't make it I look elsewhere. Only about half my stuff is GHQ, and I have standard late WW2 stuff, nothing special, which tends to indicate they could do a lot more in the WW2 line. I tend to agree with the notion of covering one line before moving into another. And I DO play 1946/47 what ifs!

P

Panzerleader71
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Post by Panzerleader71 »

To further play Devil's Advocate. Where does the line end, however? Cama wants the Matilda I, piersyf the Lloyd Carrier. Personally myself neither is of interest to me. You can't please everyone, all the time. And really GHQ, fundamentally isn't in business to do so. I think that GHQ does a really good job at listening to the customer base and expanding existing lines (Hungarian and Rumanian forces). But, let's face it alot of the "wanted items" in the lists on this forum can be considered obscure, and obscure means limited sales base.

The '47 line might fall into this, but then that is the gamble. We will have to wait until the ball starts rolling, and see how popular it really is.
The moral high ground: A good place to site your artillery.

MTB
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Post by MTB »

Mmmm...what if Napoleon had a B-52 bomber at the Battle of Waterloo.....just think...what if...

Mk 1
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Post by Mk 1 »

Panzerleader71 wrote: I am often surprised at the indifference this line is getting from the members of the forum. Certainly, I feel there are holes in current lines that should be filled, and I am confident that GHQ will will get around to filling them. However, as a business they do need to expand the existing lines that they offer, they must feel that there is enough people out there that are interested in the "what-if" scenario to make this a lucrative line.
I am not too suprised by the indifference. But I'm not bothered by the '47 line as some here are.

I've stayed pretty much out of the hubub on this topic. But this is how I see things...

I think the Wehrmacht '47 line is not really aimed at the current inhabitants of the GHQ Forum. So it is not a surprise that the line is not widely received with cheers and accolades.

I think this new line is not intended to expand the offering to GHQ's existing customer base, but rather to expand GHQ's market to a new customer base. They have identified an adjacent market. They have found a customer they think they can reach out to using their existing core competencies, and perhaps even their existing image (as a premier supplier). A prestige brand identity is a very valuable asset, and is expensive and takes a long time to create -- one of the reasons that it can be hard for even the strongest companies to break in to new markets.

It appears to me that GHQ has seen an opportunity to serve the "phantasy gamer" with a product line that is close to their existing strengths ... not pure "sci-fi" like space aliens, nor pure imagination like wizards and dragons. They have chosen a small step from their strength in historical gaming, that if successful will give them a foot-hold in one part of the market that is growing and attracting lots of younger players.

I certainly don't begrudge them their efforts to expand the company. In truth, for all the yadda-yadda about holes in the existing product lines, they are absolutely correct to tell us that this effort does not take resources away from the current lines. Guys, they already get about as much money from us as we are going to give them with their current approach. The members of this forum are regular customers, and whether any one of us spends $100 a year, or a month, with GHQ, we are not likely to double that amount just because they fill in a couple holes in their line. If they want to expand their dollars with the current customer base they'll need a whole new approach to their market (like the FoW guys have done), not more products (they already make a broader and fuller line than FoW). Changing their approach to get significantly more dollars from historical gamers would put them into even more direct competition with the FoW marketing machine, pitting GHQ against an opponent where he is strong (marketing and channel), rather than sticking with an area where GHQ is strong (better minis). With the new line they are probably hoping not to get more money from their existing customers, but rather to attract new customers that AREN'T spending their money with GHQ today, and using GHQ's existing strength (better minis) to do it.

They will probably continue to expand their WW2 and their modern micro armor lines at a sustainable rate, spending a reasonable fraction of the gross margin dollars that the lines generate on new product development. Having other product lines, or not having other product lines, won't change that simple math. If they have saved up some "risk" money from their profits, it only makes sense to put it into a product effort that expands the customer base.

At least that's how this business man would see it. And I won't begrudge GHQ for seeing it the same way. In fact I would have advised them to see things that way, if they had asked me. (Then I would have billed them. :wink: )
Personally, I have been thinking about putting together a very early WWIII game, and some of these new products might just fit into that campaign idea.
Ah, one of my favorite what-if settings! I don't know what is coming in the line, but any 1946/47 Soviet or US kit will certainly get my attention. Brit kit might, too, if I can't come up with enough US kit and need an opponent for my 1947 Soviets.
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD

Hugewally
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Post by Hugewally »

MTB wrote:Mmmm...what if Napoleon had a B-52 bomber at the Battle of Waterloo.....just think...what if...
I think with the old WRG rules you could game that... :wink:
Martin

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Post by cbovill »

Well put Mk1! GHQ is a business, and I want to see them continue in business ad infinitum, even if that means they have to grow by forging a link between the fantasy and historical worlds.

Chris

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Post by Zippy »

Every game you play is a what if ,if you dont follow every thing that happend in the real battle, no matter how stupid the move and you know that if you do it diffrently you would win.
So every body just calm down and get gaming

The group i game with played a totally made up ACW fire & fury on New Years day and
we Had a great time, The Terroist southerns won.

Mike

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Post by Donald M. Scheef »

I don't intend to get any of the Wermacht '47 models, but only because I'm concentrating on Micronauts right now. If someone asked me to play a hypothetical 1947 scenario, I would be perfectly happy. There are a number of possibilites that make such scenarios at least marginally credible (for example: Japan first strategy of the allies, collapse of the Soviet forces at Stalingrad, earlier German deployment of type XXI submarines or Me 262 as bomber interceptors).

I can't find it now, but I recall reading in a history of the Luftwaffe about a senior German officer and Ta 152 pilot who in 1945 landed at an American airfield and asked to speak with General Patton so that they could coordinate future attacks against the Soviets. Apparently, the German was astounded to learn that the Americans did not intend to attack the Soviets and indignant about being hustled off to a prisoner of war camp.

The only thing that really annoys me about this discussion is the topic of German or Japanese nuclear weapons in this time scale. I have been involved in nuclear engineering (both military and commercial nuclear power) for over forty years and am familiar with the difficulties involved. There is no possibility that any of the Axis powers could have developed a nuclear weapon in the 1940s. If you want to play with weapons of mass destruction, consider German nerve gases and Japanese biological weapons. Personally, I don't enjoy gaming with these sorts of weapons - for recreational gaming, I prefer a scenario in which there are survivors.

From what I've seen, the proposed items in this line are no more incredible than the German H class and US Montana class battleships that are already available to the nautical enthusiasts. In fact, I have these models and would like to see more of the hypothetical and early post-war ships become available from GHQ.

On the other hand, it is a shame that GHQ has not yet produced a Matilda I and a Lloyd carrier.

Don S.
Last edited by Donald M. Scheef on Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

piersyf
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Post by piersyf »

I tend to agree with Mk1 on GHQ's business approach. And I don't think there has been much of an argument against the 1947 line except for indifference to the concept. Some have argued the resource angle, which has some merit (if only from the man hours and masters costs not going to filling holes in the current lines) but as I don't play early WW2 or North Africa/Med OR pacific, I could stamp my feet about the waste of time spent on US Marine equipment, Italians, even the Hungarians are of no interest to me. GHQ does cover a lot and I also want to see them continue. My comment on Lloyd carriers was simply that here is a vehicle used throughout the conflict by a major player in the war and made in very large numbers that has been ignored. I have mine from H&R, and even though they are an ugly beasty if GHQ brought one out I'd consider removing the H&R ones and replacing them with a higher quality model. Upgrading my current 'fleet' is proving a larger undertaking than I bargained on because the current castings are of such high quality that I feel 'compelled' to make all my stuff look as good as the others.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned but may be relevant here (and also in the US Para's thread) is the changing technology. There are now about 20 different pewter alloys available with differing hardnesses and slightly different melt points. Commercial centrifuges for casting low melt point metals are now relatively cheap, and the making of a master can now be done by computer to an accuracy of under 1/300th of an inch for less than $8000 for the machine, not just the masters. Basically, a new company could start up for about $20,000 and start challenging GHQ for quality if they had the casting skills to go with the gear. GHQ are possibly marking territory now and establishing a reputation in a new genre (as Mk1 suggests) before some other company gets going. Simple market placement. As Mk1 said, that's good business strategy. Good luck to them.

If I have one concern, it's that there seems to be a parallel disinterest from GHQ regarding the allies. M36B with OHP, Centurion 1 - 3's etc, not to mention the jet a/c brought out by the US and Britain. All usable in Korea as well, so not just fantasy stuff. Some stuff could be simple 'mod packs' too, like fuel trailers to convert Churchills to Crocodiles, or the OHP plates for M36's... a very cheap option for them to put allied vehicles up against the new '47 stuff for the Germans.

P

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