Wehrmacht '47 is here!!!

[Sven]

I must commend you on some really great painting.
Skal,
Sven

[av8rmongo]

I would hate to be the Allies facing those monster tanks. Very Nice work!! Keep the photos coming.

That my friend is why they created airpower - the bigger they are the more fun they are to blow up.

Paul

[dougeagle]

Does anyone have the Late War German infantry for the '47 line?
What are your thoughts on them?

[Schwerepunkt]

I have both the regular infantry and heavy weapons components of the Wehrmacht 47 line. I have not finished painting the infantry yet but they almost entirely have automatic weapons. The heavy weapons unit has panzerfausts and mortars and other special weapons. I am not so much of an expert on small arms, especially late war but I can tell you that the figures are very detailed.
Thank you all for your comments on my paint jobs and the little dioramas I make. I though the comparison shot would be of interest and I plan to make them as well with the Allied armor as it is released. I truly enjoy using photoshop to do the pictures and I have scenery and buildings that I used earlier and soon I will make a larger stand using spray glue (Elmer's) which will make placement of grass and foliage much easier.
I also plan to attach foliage to the model trees I obtained to make them appear natural.
There is more coming.
Heavy weapons: prone MG42 gunners with drum cartridge case
two man MG42 team with weapon on tripod; 2 man Kz 8cm grenatenwerfer 42 (mortar)
kneeling flame throwers; men advancing carrying MG 42
Infantry: men armed with Sturmgewher44 Assault Rifles, others with KAR89 assault rifles, others carrying Panzerfausts, two prone observers
Edited 7-23-09 Bob W/Schwerepunkt

[DAK]

Paul.

Gotta get through those Me-262 first.

[av8rmongo]

DAK,

The Me-262s have to get out of the factory. How many made it 300 or so?

Paul

[Schwerepunkt]

...if Allied bombing is halted as is posed in the scenario, at least 1,000 Me262s are completed and pilots trained. This allows Germany to build the new Panzerabteilung Wehrmacht 46, 47, 48 and perhaps build their own bomber force with which to pummel Britain and possibly the USA.
If one discounts the premise set for the Wehrmacht 47 scenario, then only about 300 jets make it into combat and the Allies cruise to victory as actually happened. Again, all this is strictly hypothetical and it is pointed out in the scenario newsletter that the National ** CENSORED ** Regime was perhaps the most evil, cruel, and harshest in world history. The entire scenario is a what if which "might allow" a prolonging of the Second World War. As Japan has been incinerated by that time, other than occupation forces, the entire strength of the US Armed Forces would be available including bombers able to make the round trip from the United States to Germany, the Convair B-36 which could carry six atom bombs at an altitude the Me262 could not reach. Bob/Schwerepunkt

[av8rmongo]

I totally agree that if you use the proffered alternate reality then allied bombers don't bomb the factories and production rates are higher than historical rates. But my major objection from the beginning was that doesn't mean that it is the Me-262 that is produced, or any of the E- series vehicles or any of the vehicles being produced in the Wehrmacht '47 line.

The line is based on actual historic records of vehicles that were (or almost were) designed, developed or at least conceived based on the war experiences of the actual Wehrmacht during the actual historic war. There are selective pressures that influenced the design thinking that came from these lessons learned in blood. To get to the alternate history point in '47 where there could still be a viable Wehrmacht to be continuing the fight you have to back up the divergence point waaaay back to '38 or '39 maybe more (a point which can be argued). When you change the direction of the war you change the lessons learned (selective pressures) of the war you necessarily change the products of that war - the war materiel.

There are only two choices:
1. Developmental destiny is fixed - you will always end up with the Me-262, E- series etc. regardless of the direction/conduct of the war that got you there.
Or
2. War - as the ultimate expression of survival of the fitest - is an evolutionary crucible where changes, even small changes in initial conditions (and any subsequent conditions) create so many branches and sequels that it is impossible to achieve the same results twice if you vary anything. Can you end up with the Me-262 if you don't fight the war as it happened? Maybe. Maybe the Me-109 is enough - maybe you get a Me-(fill in the blank) that is generations beyond the 262. My point is you don't know what you're going to get when you change the initial conditions (depending upon how far back that change happens).

To me this line of products is cool in the way that someone decided to actually produce, even if just in model form, these next generation vehicles from an organization that in many ways pioneered modern warfare. But the marketing of this product line doesn't pass a common sense test. The story line isn't credible - you can't change the strategic, operational and tactical levels of the war and still come up with the same war materiel requirements.

So you can say the allies never conduct or halt the massive bombing raids so the factories and supply chains aren't damaged and more Me-262 are produced and are operational. I say if there are no massive air raids there is no pressure on the Wehrmacht to protect their war machine, there is no need for increased speed or altitude or firepower why dedicate the resources to the Me-262? Resources are always constrained and most of the time they flow to relieve pressure points. No pressure - no point in wasting resources.

Where do you draw the line?

Paul

[Panzerleader71]

"To get to the alternate history point in '47 where there could still be a viable Wehrmacht to be continuing the fight you have to back up the divergence point waaaay back to '38 or '39 maybe more..."

Not necessarily. The divergence point could be as late as June 6th1944, if the Germans could have held the line and delayed the allies much more then they did, or even better (for purpose of this discussion) thrown the Allies "back into the sea" they could have had the time to implement some of the more advanced prototypes. Of course this only an educated guess on my part, as I have never even heard of most of the designs in the '47 line and do not know the production status of them of them in '44/'45. I just think they are really neat, but probably won't actually get into as part of the hobby.

[av8rmongo]

Okay, lets assume the Normandy landings go badly. Would the Allies have stopped the air campaign? Not likely. In fact loss of planned fighter bases in France might have caused a "branch and sequel" decision on the Allies part of introducing the B-29 into service in Europe ratcheting up the pressure of the air campaign. If the air campaign doesn't stop then I think you still get to a point where there are a very limited number of Me-262 available.

Or to put it in terms of my "evolutionary" model the divergence point is fairly close in time to the historic track and the selective pressure (Allied air campaign) is basically unaffected (or maybe increased) the result is going to be similar to the real deal.

Okay lets assume the Normandy landings go badly again. Would the Allies have also pulled out of Italy? Not likely. Rome was captured on June 4th and although far from being the "soft underbelly" Italy, by June 6th, was a more than a foothold in Europe. And remember many experienced allied units from the Italian campaign were pulled out after the successful Normandy landings to secure southern France, something like 6 or 7 divisions. No Normandy and those veteran units are still in the mix in Italy. Do they go through Vienna and Hungary as Churchill wanted? Do they continue slogging north through Austria into Germany? Who knows, but the war continues with a different flavor. Tthe war in Italy was allowed to languish (in the sense that it wasn't first priority for men and machines) because the allies could afford to. All that was required was to maintain pressure and tie down reserves. No Normandy and suddenly Italy is center stage for the Western Allies.

If you pick June 6th 1944 as the point of divergence the Italian campaign becomes much more important obviously. There were already plenty of captured airbases which could have supported the strategic effort into Germany. Supply lines would be considerably longer and vulnerable to interdiction in the Med or Eastern atlantic (resurgence of uboat war?)

My point, my opinion is that selecting D-Day as the point of divergence - while a real possibility - doesn't necessarily get you to 1947. So many of the determining factors (determined in hindsight of course) in the Allied victory were already in place. And in the finite example of Me-262 production that we've been talking about I don't believe it changes the scale or scope very much. Reasonable minds may differ and I welcome other opinions. I'm certainly no expert on WWII history.

Paul

[Panzerleader71]

You are quite right, I was only using D-Day as a spring board. I think that you would have to input the idea that the US would have pulled out of Europe if D-Day had gone as bad as I suggested (it was a distinct possibility), and concentrated on the Pacific. As you say things would also have to really bog down in Italy as well. That is the problem with alternate histories, you have to look at the big picture and make a lot of subtle changes to the time line. you can't base it on only one divergence point.

That is the good point of business marketing, GHQ only supplies the figs, it is up to the customer (us) to figure out to change the timeline.

[Schwerepunkt]

Everyone can invent scenarios that have little or nothing to do with historical reality and run with them. Of course, Wehrmacht '47 did not happen, the Allied bombing proceeded to knock the hell out of Germany, and the Allied invasion of Normandy succeeded (although barely so and possibly not if the reserve Panzer Divisions had been release to Rommel). I don't deny that but I do think this new line is realistic and would have been based on wartime experience (especially on the Russian front. Mobile artillery like the Hummel and the Weapons carriers could have given Russian massed artillery difficult targets to hit and the new armor and infantry support vehicles would have been hard to handle.
Again, it is impossible to surmise that Germany could have built enough of these to have had a decisive influence on the war. I am currently drawing up a wartime scenario with US Fleet units based at North African Ports, Gibraltar, Malta and Alexandria. The RN Home Fleet is at Scapa Flow and the USN is home ported at Norfolk, VA, NY and Boston. What would the USN have had if the war had gone to 1947? Six Midway class CVB, 24 ** CENSORED ** Class CV, possibly 4 Montana class BB, 6 Iowa class BB and so on.
With Japan flattened, all of this sea power would have been available to the Atlantic.
I believe a forced invasion of Europe across the English channel could have been arranged or even one in the Baltic directly into Germany. Fanciful thinking, you bet.

[chrisswim]

I do not believe that those models are likely across the board, as resources have limits/constraints in production, in design, development. Nice way to imagine it if you like the Germans/SS/ Wehrmacht, Russian, UK evolution development etc., that to play it. All of our games are up to our imagination, even picking a battle and deploying from a specific starting point with the question: what would I do?

so the 47 line is valid. Schwerepunkt, I see your passion here as mine is elsewhere. Enjoy the new line.

[Schwerepunkt]

...already available in 1/1200 scale. If someone does not feel the Wehrmacht 47 line is appropriate, they can communicate with GHQ and say so and I think some have already on this forum. The above naval scenario shows that even if Germany were to defeat the Soviet Union, eventually the US and British Armed Forces would storm ashore either at Normandy on Southern France or through Italy to strike at Germany's heartland.
I do plan to enjoy the new models, including the Allied.
Bob/Schwerepunkt