Sherman advice please!

Muggy · Post by **Muggy** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:32 am

Am buliding a US tank unit for the Normandy campaign and would like help on which Shermans I should be buying, M4A1's or A3's? 75mm or 76mm? Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks in advance

fredjg · Post by **fredjg** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:10 am

All US Shermans, for the invasion, were 75s.

76s were brought ashore starting in July 44, but Patton didn't see any till the early fall.

The A1s were in production till June or July '44, after that A3s were the "production" run.

Rough guide, A1s and A3s, with 75s, were the most common until the Battle of the Bulge.

Panzerleader71 · Post by **Panzerleader71** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:36 am

"...but Patton didn't see any till the early fall."

That is because no one could find him.

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:05 am

Yeah it is a bit of a spot to be in, trying to do Normandie with the current Shermans.

(Sigh. Yes I know, many folks here are not sympathetic to the voices that call for a couple more models of the Sherman in the GHQ catalog, but hey, some guys just might want to do Normandie, y'know?)

As noted, the 75mm gunned Shermans will be the center of your force. M4A1 76mm-armed Shermans, as in the GHQ offering, started to join units in Normandie in July, in time for the Cobra break-out. But during June all Sherman gun tanks were 75mm.

(BTW - Patton did indeed see M4A1s with 76mm guns before the fall. He attended a demonstration of them in the UK in May of 1944, about 2 weeks prior to D-Day, along with several other front line officers. It was the strong recommendations of these commanders that the upgunned Shermans not be issued to the troops just prior to the invasion. They didn't want troops, and logistics, working with new and unfamiliar equipment they had not been trained on during the invasion.)

The most common Sherman models to come ashore on D-Day were the mid-production M4 and the M4A1. M4A3s started arriving in front line units after the landings.

The GHQ M4A1 75mm model is not a great choice for Normandie. M4A1s were present in large numbers, but they were later mid-production versions with the M34A1 (wide) gun mantlet and applique armor on the hull sides. The GHQ M4A1 is an early-production version, with the M34 (narrow) mantlet and no applique.

The M4 is not present in the GHQ catalog in early, mid or late production versions.

The M4A3 is present. It is a good model, but alas shows a tank that was a post-D-Day arrival. The biggest problem with the model is the turret -- the commander's cupola was a late-war addition. Sherman turrets in June of 1944 should have the wide gun mantlet, but flat commander's hatches.

The GHQ model of the M4A4 Late War British Sherman V (UK65) is a good presentation of a D-Day Sherman, but alas the US Army did not operate the M4A4 (it was lend-lease only). The hull is too long for any other version of the Sherman (the M4A4 had an extended hull to fit the Chrysler multi-bank engine). Also the Sherman V model has external stowage on the rear of the turret. I have not seen that on pictures of any US tanks stowing gear like this, but heck, if you don't mind the ~1mm or so of off-sized hull and the stowed gear you might give it a try.

Or you could go for the British DD Sherman models. DD Shermans were present inland for weeks after D-Day. With the flotation screen down around the hull you can't really judge what version of Sherman it is, anyways.

Hope that helps.

supertsar · Post by **supertsar** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:34 pm

Mk 1 wrote: (Sigh. Yes I know, many folks here are not sympathetic to the voices that call for a couple more models of the Sherman in the GHQ catalog, but hey, some guys just might want to do Normandie, y'know?)

I second the call for a mid production 75' sherman with applique armor. I think most gamers enjoy playing with the right pieces for the right time frame.
Second on my list would be an early production M7 priest for North Africa - El Alamein battles (3 piece trans housing, first style bogies...). The model they have out is March 44' production.

Of course that will never happen. But a man can dream. A man can dream...

pmskaar · Post by **pmskaar** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:11 am

I agree with what Mk1 and Superstar said. There is a need for more Shermans as already described. My wishlist last year called for more and I got slammed for being a spoiled Sherman seeker but I don't care.
I know GHQ already makes around 19 or so. None of the ones that they make for the Americans are really representative for Normandy and beyond but either cover earlier periods in the case of the current M4A1 or later such as the late production M4A3 with 75 and commander's cupola instead of the split hatch.
I would vote for any Sherman models that GHQ would do that would represent Normandy including an earlier M4A3 with early glacis, applique armor, and split hatch, an M4A1 with wide mantlet and applique armor, and an M4 as well. A Sherman detail kit with extra track links and bogies and external stowage items would also be very cool.
I also like to see the right models for the right period and more Shermans are needed especially for Normandy.

Pete - Binpicker, Out!

saukopf · Post by **saukopf** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:36 am

I'd just like to thank Mark1 for ruining my collection of 30+ shermans for me, except the Fireflies or is there something wrong with them for Normandy too?

Phil.

pmskaar · Post by **pmskaar** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:53 pm

The British are actually fairly well represented for Normandy. UK 57 the Sherman V, UK 58 Firefly, and UK 65 Late War Sherman V were all available. UK 57 with sideskirts and narrow mantlet would be more representative of earlier Shermans while UK 65 would represent later models present for Normandy and beyond. My one quibble with the Firefly is that it has the skirts but most pictures of Fireflys I have seen show no sideskirts attached. I would love to have GHQ do some Fireflys without the skirts but I can live with the ones I have for now.

Currently, GHQ only makes 2 American 75mm Shermans. Neither one is really appropriate to represent the Shermans in Normandy. US 90 which is the M4A1 is an early version good for Tunisia, Sicily, and into Italy. I am happy to have this one for when I game Tunisia and was involved in lobbying to get it done.
US 74 is the M4A3. There were M4A3's in Normandy but this one in not a good representative. I have yet to see any 75mm Shermans in Normandy with a commander's cupola. In fact, in both of my Squadron Signal books on the Sherman, I have only seen one picture of one with the cupola and it was in thei Pacific. It was surrounded by several other Shermans with the more common split hatch. I'm not sure why GHQ chose this particular one to do but that is it. Their model also has the later glacis which had a different slope and removed the bulges from the driver and MG gunner positions.
These are the only 2 American 75mm Shermans currently made by GHQ. The Jumbo Sherman is the far less common 76mm version.

In my opinion, GHQ needs a few more 75mm American Shermans to round out the line. An earlier M4A3 with the early style glacis and split hatch would be my pick but I also want the later M4A1 with applique armor and wide mantlet for starters with an M4 as well would give the Americans in Normandy a good representation. I hope they will do at least a couple of these in 2010.

I am interested to know which units had which type of Shermans. Maybe Mk1 can answer this and make any further comments or corrections to anything I have said here.

Pete - Binpicker, Out!

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:55 am

pmskaar wrote:The British are actually fairly well represented for Normandy.

Agreed.

M4A4 serves well for British Shermans in Normandy. Fireflies are good too -- typically at a rate of 1 per troop at first, expanding to 2 per troop by about the end of the year.

Currently, GHQ only makes 2 American 75mm Shermans. Neither one is really appropriate to represent the Shermans in Normandy.

Aye, there's the rub.

US 74 is the M4A3. There were M4A3's in Normandy but this one in not a good representative.

Even this statement (M4A3s in Normandy) might not be correct.

The M4A3 became the US Army's preferred Sherman model. M4 and M4A1 were the original preferred versions, but became second choices once M4A3 was available. (M4A2 and M4A4 were not used by the US Army except in VERY limited numbers -- early on and in training.)

As I understand it several US Armored Divisions that fought in Normandy trained up on the M4A3 in the US, but were re-equipped with M4s or M4A1s when they arrived in the UK, because that was what had been pre-positioned.

It is not clear that any M4A3s actually came ashore on D-Day or during the fight in the bocage. But that is not a definitive statement. What is clear is that several of the follow-on waves of US Armored Divisions for the ETO were indeed equipped almost entirely with M4A3s, and that M4A3s became the most common replacement vehicles after about September, even for those units that had been equipped with M4s or M4A1s.

The Jumbo Sherman is the far less common 76mm version.

Ah, but at least with the Jumbo we have the opportunity to snip the barrel. All Jumbos used the same modified T-23 turret, whether armed with the 75mm gun (as ALL factory-built Jumbos were) or with the 76mm gun (as some were re-equipped in ETO, mostly after January of 1945). So you can buy the GHQ M4A3E2, and then just snip the barrels shorter on those you want to have as 75mm armed Jumbos.

I am interested to know which units had which type of Shermans. Maybe Mk1 can answer this and make any further comments or corrections to anything I have said here.

The flow of Sherman models to the US Army for ETO ran like this:

June 1944: M4 and M4A1 were dominant, all 75mm armed.
July 1944: First M4A1 76mm issued to units in Normandy.
September 1944: M4A3 75mm and M4A3 76mm start to arrive.
Sept-Oct 1944: The only factory lot of M4A3E2s was issued, a few per Armored Division.
December 1944: M4A3E8 first issued.

Unfortunately I don't have much more detail on which units used what model. Most unit reports only identified whether they were armed with 75mm, 76mm or 105mm, but not which sub-version they were. The one exception is that many unit status reports or AARs seem to identify M4A3E8s seperately, as these were considered to be the ultimate Sherman.

Here is what I have, provided by Yves Bellanger, from his work on his upcoming book on the organization of US Armored Divisions:

2nd Armored Division
Don't know what they landed with on D-Day beaches. First unit to receive M4A1 76mm, in early July.

4th Armored Division
Trained on M4A3, but re-equipped with some M4, and principally
M4A1, in England. Started receiving M4A3 75mm, M4A1 and M4A3 76mm, and some M4A3E2 Jumbo, in the fall. First division to receive the M4A3E8, in the last week of December.

5th Armored Division
AAR of 1 September 1944, identifies the following types of tanks: M4, M4A1, M4A1 76mm, M4A3 75mm, M4A3 76mm, M4 105mm.

8th Armored Division
Arrived on the continent with M4A3 75mm and some M4A3 76mm. It received some M4A3E8 in February 1945

10th Armored Division
Equipped with M4A3, most with 75mm guns, some with 76mm guns.

11th Armored Division
Landed in France with M4A3 75mm, some M4A3 76mm and M4A3E2. Received M4A3E8 as replacements in February 1945.

(Check out Yves' excellent books here: http://perso.numericable.fr/~yvesjbel/books.html -Mk 1)

pmskaar · Post by **pmskaar** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:40 am

Thanks for the info Mk1. Now tell me which individual companies had what types - Just kidding.

If there were no M4A3's in Normandy until September then I stand corrected. I thought some units had them during the fighting in Normandy but I could be wrong.

I do hope GHQ will give us 2 or 3 more 75mm Shermans for this time period. A model of the M4A2 would be nice for US in the Pacific and lend lease as well.

I did think about trimming the barrel down on the Jumbo Sherman. If all else is the same then this would be the practical solution fo have the 75mm "Jumbo".

Pete - Binpicker and Spoiled Sherman Seeker - Out!