policy disagreement...

[opsctr]

I strongly disagree with the policy of removing links to organizations, be they retail or not, that sell supporting items for our hobby, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY DO NOT COMPETE WITH GHQ.

I am DEEPLY offended that a link about "Z" SCALE road tape from a supplier that sells GHQ railroad models, was removed from a recent post designed to help members of this orgainzation improve the look and realism of their wargaming terrain...

If this is really GHQ policy, and not the over zealous application of a less stringent policy I am afraid I will have to sever my connections with this site.

Will
Managing Partner
Command Operations Center, LLC

[BattlerBritain]

Yeah - I saw that.

I did do a "Huh? What they do that for?"

[Donald M. Scheef]

I can understand the upset about a particular link being removed when that link is meant to be helpful to the community.
On the other hand, there are reasons for a "policy" like this.
GHQ is a business and supports this site. They certainly have an interest and the right to prevent/remove links to direct competitors.
The problem then comes from the litigenous nature of our society. If you allow link "abc" that is only remotely related to your business, then vendor "xyz" can sue if you remove a link that is more closely competitive.
The reality is that an absolute policy of NO commercial links is the correct approach.

It's OK to mention the name of a commercial organization (even a direct competitor like CinC, ALNAVCO, Viking Forge, etc.) so long as you don't make it a link. I have had no difficulty finding links to such organizations using any of several search engines. At worst, just ask interested individuals to send you a personal message. Then you can reply separately from the GHQ forum.

Don S.

[chrisswim]

If disagree with a policy, email at first to see if it should/needs to be changed or if the interpretation of the policy is correct. Hopefully, not to inflame the issue. When issues get built up, people get stuck in their positions and cannot budge and discuss to get another solution.

Will at opctr, hate to see you go. Enjoy your media material.

Maybe these other companies could set a contract to have GHQ on their website as a link.

[30YRSGHQ]

I also agree with Donald. Problems will arise when you selectively allow links - how do you monitor this properly? The only policy that is effective and manageable is the exact policy that GHQ uses - total exclusion to external links. They are not trying to be nasty, just practical. GHQ continues to be the best!

[kiasutha]

I can see both sides of this, & don't really care either way.
I can do a "search" if I have a name...

BUT- Is this an absolute zero tolerance policy or not?
There has been a web-link posted since about Sept 17 to a Syracuse NY hobby shop that ostensibly sells GHQ.
(I didn't see any info on their web site, & I'm on the other end of the state anyway...)
So- Is posting a direct link to a retailer OK, or did this just slip under the "radar"?

JimR.

[8ball]

I don't think it has anything to do with legalities or the integrety of links posted by forum members. For godsakes, There are tons of forums, The Miniatures Page for example, that allow links of all kind. Rather, in this forum people have posted links to competitors, like C&C and Ross. Understandibly, GHQ would remove these links.

Now, in the past, I have posted links to hobby suppliers, like K&J Magnetics and others, and they were not removed. Other members here have posted links to their own sites, and they weren't removed. So a banning of all links, seems to me to be something recent.

Who knows, maybe they've decided it was easier to prohibit ALL links than to be selective. It's their right, but it seems to me that banning links to suppliers and manufacturers that suppliment the hobby, is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But what the heck do I know.

[dalewill]

There has been a web-link posted since about Sept 17 to a Syracuse NY hobby shop that ostensibly sells GHQ.
(I didn't see any info on their web site, & I'm on the other end of the state anyway...)
So- Is posting a direct link to a retailer OK, or did this just slip under the "radar"?
JimR.

Jim:

Like you, I don't care either way about the links.

The Walt's in Syracuse link, which I didn't create it, was more about getting people to come to our Monday night gaming/painting that I'm involved with. Their web site does include information about that.

Walt's is a new GHQ retailer. They do carry a small amount of GHQ in store and I just ordered about 15 packs through Walt's. I know others have been placing orders for GHQ with them and they are hoping to grow this line.

Dale

[Ravenseye]

I will remove the link to our shop asap.
(looks like cama already got there! Thanks cama!)
Apologies folks. I didn't mean to cause a kerfluffle.

-Mike, from Walt's

[CBoy3]

I am willing to believe that sometimes people say/write things in the heat of the moment, and maybe don't mean exactly what they have said/written. Unfortunately with this electronic age there is an endless record of what you have written. I have looked at many of Will's posts, and he seems pretty helpful and reasonable. Maybe he doesn't actually mean that he is "DEEPLY offended" because it doesn't appear that anyone has singled him out.

It seems that GHQ has a reasonable policy for allowing links. I get the idea that links to clubs, personal webpages of forum members, and links to places that sell GHQ products are allowed. Links to other manufacturers websites, and links promoting the products of other manufacturers are not allowed. Given that GHQ provides us with this forum, that seems like a pretty reasonable unwritten (is it unwritten, or is it written somewhere?) policy. It seems like allowing any links that promote the products of other manufacturers is a slippery slope. It could start with a type of product that GHQ doesn't make (like road material), then allow links to models that GHQ makes but are in a different scale (maybe 1/35th scale Tamiya tanks?) which obviously are not going to directly compete with GHQ models, and if all of those are allowed because GHQ doesn't make direct competitors, that gets us closer to having allowing a link for a model that C in C, Heroics and Ros, etc. makes that GHQ does not.

I haven't been following this thread from the begining, or some of the others that are mentioned, so I may be missing some of the points. I have looked into a couple of them after seeing this thread to see what is going on. The thread and link for the hobby store seems reasonable because this guy is saying "I am selling GHQ products, come buy them from me." He doesn't even mention any other products in his post.

In addition, as a couple of previous posters have mentioned, unlike some other manufacturers GHQ does allow topics that deal with other manufacturers, and if someone is really interested in a particular product it's pretty easy to take that name and put it into a search engine.

This forum is usually a calm place in a sometimes stormy world. With very few exceptions over the few years that I have been following it there have been very few instances of spamming (and those have been taken down very quickly), and almost all of the time the tones are very amiable. Rather than getting down on GHQ and the moderators, I would like to thank them all for providing this forum for all of us. I look at a few different bulletin boards/forums on several different of my many interests, and I have to say that this is the best run forum of the lot. That is high praise, and shows that it can't be an easy job to keep these things running smoothly!

Thanks,
Charles

[kiasutha]

Dale & Mike:
For the record, my intent was NOT to offend you or cause you any difficulty.
I wanted a clarification, since leaving your link did appear to be "at odds" with the stated policy that upset Will rather mightily. So I asked...

I don't get upset over their policy- nor do I necessarily agree with it either...(And I'm still not sure I actually fully understand what it is)
I checked your store link, because once in a great while I do get out that way, &
It's been a long time since I've been in a shop that actually stocked GHQ.

I think GHQ's link policy is essentially one of "lowest common denominator".
If you don't allow any commercial links at all; there is no question of judgement calls or disputes.
Is it friendliest for the customers, or even the shops still selling GHQ? No, not really.
It's probably safest and easiest for GHQ and the moderaters, though.
Obviously, opinions vary as to how this all reflects on GHQ...

[Ravenseye]

kiasutha,

You didn't upset me at all I was worried that I was being a "bad neighbor" by posting a link to the store that I work for.

I've been coming to this forum for the last few years. I do not post a whole lot, but I do like the community and would dislike being thought of as anything other than a contributer to the boards!

-Mike

[GHQ]

It seems that our policy about links on our forum has created some confusion. This issue hasn't come up many times in the past, so most people probably understand the idea behind it. Several of the previous posters covered it pretty well. Without hiring a team of lawyers to draft a policy, we will run through some of the things that are acceptable, and some that are not. It is probably easiest to start with the links that are not acceptable.

These are all NOT acceptable links for your GHQ forum posts

-Direct links to the websites of other manufacturers.

-Links to websites/articles that promote the products of other manufacturers.

-Links to product pages for products made by other manufacturers, even if GHQ products are sold somewhere on that website.

-Links to websites that have absolutely nothing to do with anything relating to GHQ products.


These are all acceptable links for your GHQ forum posts

-Personal websites that shows off your models, historical writing, etc.

-Non-commercial websites that show off things pertaining to military history, military modeling, wargaming, model railroading, etc. (i.e. things that are related to GHQ products).

-Links to outside websites that promote GHQ products.

-Links to events that pertain to GHQ products (wargaming conventions, model railroading shows, etc.).

There are probably more examples that can be added to both categories, but that covers most of it. Ultimately it is up to GHQ, and the moderators, to make the decisions. Please keep in mind that it is not an easy thing to keep a forum like this cordial, free of ads, free of p-o-r-n-o-graphy, and running 24 hrs a day. We appreciate every one of our registered forum members. We love to see the exchange of ideas, and information, and we are happy to provide a place for people with uncommon interests to find one another. With that being said, this is a private forum that is paid for by GHQ. The Bill of Rights does not apply here. As any of you who have followed our forum for years already know, it is a rare occurrence when a post is edited, or not allowed. An earlier poster noted that there is a slippery slope that is started when commercial posts are allowed. That pretty well sums up what we were thinking when we decided to not allow any posts that promote the products of other manufacturers. We allow a tremendous amount of leeway on the discussion of products made by other manufacturers. You regularly find the names of other manufacturers on our forum, and often times the poster is using it as as example of how GHQ should do something. We don't take these down. If there is a company, or product, that is being discussed, then it is very easy to Google that information to find a website. We don't stop the flow of information, but we will not provide a platform to promote the purchase of products that are not ours. We sometimes look at the forums on other manufacturers websites, and we think that people will find our forum to be much more open about the discussions of competing companies and products than most of them that we see.

This may not go over well with everyone, but that's how we feel.

Thank you for your support,
GHQ

[Mk 1]

I am willing to believe that sometimes people say/write things in the heat of the moment, and maybe don't mean exactly what they have said/written. ... I have looked at many of Will's posts, and he seems pretty helpful and reasonable. Maybe he doesn't actually mean that he is "DEEPLY offended" because it doesn't appear that anyone has singled him out.

I have remained quiet on this thread up to now, but perhaps I should chime in. Up to this point I felt it better not to risk adding fuel to the fire, as I was the MODERATOR who edited Will's post.

I, too, hope Will is not deeply offended, and I hope he is not dissuaded from further participation in the GHQ Forums. He is a valued participant. I have enjoyed his many posts, and always look forward to reading more about his group and their activities, and seeing more pictures of their remarkable modelling and gaming.

When I edited his posting I tried to do it in a friendly and courteous manner. No offense was intended. But I was not being "over zealous". I was mearly following the guidelines our hosts have provided, which is, after all, what the MODERATORS have been asked to do.

It seems that GHQ has a reasonable policy for allowing links. I get the idea that links to clubs, personal webpages of forum members, and links to places that sell GHQ products are allowed. Links to other manufacturers websites, and links promoting the products of other manufacturers are not allowed. Given that GHQ provides us with this forum, that seems like a pretty reasonable unwritten (is it unwritten, or is it written somewhere?) policy.

The policy is indeed written, here on the forum, for all to see.

The following quote is from the sticky thread you will find at the top of the forum: "Sticky: Tips when registering for your forum account"

Welcome to the world of GHQ. First, thank you for your interest in becoming a registered member of our forum. ... To cut down the number of spammers on our forum, no accounts are automatically acitvated, all registration forms are first screened with human eyes. To help our screeners, and to make sure that your account is activated, please follow these suggestions:

- DO NOT put anything about por-nography, drugs, phar-maceuticals, online gambling sites, s-e-xual products, etc. anywhere in your profile.

- Be sure to list that military history, modeling, gaming, etc. is one of your interests, or hobbies.

-DO NOT list a commercial website in your profile.

Because this forum is paid for and maintained by GHQ, we ask that you do not include any website addresses for other companies in your postings. We try to keep a very friendly and informative atmosphere on our forum, so please refrain from using profanity and any name calling. ... All posts are subject to being edited or deleted by any of our forum moderators. ...

Thank you for your support,
GHQ

I have selectively quoted and highlighted the GHQ statement, the full text is available for all to read.

As we can all see, the rules our hosts and GHQ have laid out for us are few. No links to other companies, and civilized decorum. That's pretty basic, and should be something we can all live with.

Occasionally questions have arisen about what does, or does not, comprise a link to a "company". Clubs and personal websites are allowed. GHQ's most common threshold for links which clearly "cross the line" has been this: if it is a web store, a link for a place that sells things through the web, then it is across the line. So company links that don't involve ecommerce are sometimes overlooked -- they might be considered the gray zone.

Discussions of other companies' products, and/or posting pictures of other companies' products are not prohibited, even if those other companies are direct competitors. GHQ clearly wants this to be a place for the full breadth of discussions of the hobby. But they do not wish to spend their money promoting other companies' businesses. And also they have an interest in keeping down the SPAM (ever see a SPAM that didn't include a webstore link?). So they have given us this simple policy.

It seems reasonable to me.

And by the way, the first response to GHQ's posting of this policy was this:

GHQ,

Thanks for taking this step...!

Will

Sometimes we are surprised by what the practical implications are from statements we have accepted in the abstract. But I can assure all parties (those involved, and those who are mearly spectators) that there was no ill intent in the editing of Will's posting. We MODERATORS are just forum members who have volunteered to help keep the forum in line with GHQ's simple guidelines. We love the hobby, enjoy the forums, and want to keep the discussions in this place alive and active.

No offense indended, Will. I hope you understand.

-Mark