Isn't that the reason why the Talibs are doing as well as they are?Cheat, cheat, cheat, and make sure your opponent has "rules" to play by!
The Four Keys to Krasnovian Victory
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Xveers
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:18 am
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I always thought that was the point of war games (and by extension the practice of war in general). You can't expect both sides to play by a set of rules (beyond no WMD and Geneva, though the latter is realistically a fuzzy implementation) since both sides play to win. Unless you have guys who walk over and permanently verify that my targets are neutralized, I can't be sure that I did get them. A half-competent opponent will do his best to fight on his own terms, to his own strengths, and if possible will manufacture every edge and advantage that they can get away with.
On that note, it reminds me of a story (apocryphal perhaps) that I heard of in wargames. Dunno where it happened, but the basic story was that two Canadian infantry companies were defending a forest road against an American armored division. The Canadians set up their radio on one side of the road into the forest, and deployed far on the other side with a landline connecting them. American artillery ID'd the transmitter and pasted it, then rolled down the road, with the Canadians not interfering. The armored unit moved in and engaged the main line of defense a bit farther down, and the Canadians moved in and set up a blockade on the road, systematically knocking out or capturing every supply truck that was moving up behind them. A little while later the observers started flagging US tanks as "out of ammo/gas" all down the line. The US commander complained to the judges that the Canadians had violated the rules of the engagement. Their response was "This is war. You were expecting fair?"
Lastly, the entire point of people training in that kind of circumstance is to expose you to a situation where -everything- goes wrong. You train with all the screw ups so that when they DO happen, you're used to it. And when it all works out for you, it's a piece of cake. After all, war is a very unforgiving teacher. Better for your reviews to be as nasty as possible so that when the exam comes, you'll be ready.
On that note, it reminds me of a story (apocryphal perhaps) that I heard of in wargames. Dunno where it happened, but the basic story was that two Canadian infantry companies were defending a forest road against an American armored division. The Canadians set up their radio on one side of the road into the forest, and deployed far on the other side with a landline connecting them. American artillery ID'd the transmitter and pasted it, then rolled down the road, with the Canadians not interfering. The armored unit moved in and engaged the main line of defense a bit farther down, and the Canadians moved in and set up a blockade on the road, systematically knocking out or capturing every supply truck that was moving up behind them. A little while later the observers started flagging US tanks as "out of ammo/gas" all down the line. The US commander complained to the judges that the Canadians had violated the rules of the engagement. Their response was "This is war. You were expecting fair?"
Lastly, the entire point of people training in that kind of circumstance is to expose you to a situation where -everything- goes wrong. You train with all the screw ups so that when they DO happen, you're used to it. And when it all works out for you, it's a piece of cake. After all, war is a very unforgiving teacher. Better for your reviews to be as nasty as possible so that when the exam comes, you'll be ready.
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Xveers
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:18 am
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Then it sounds like they're a bunch of sponges. They want to feel big cause they cheat? Let em. Set your own performance standard to be "we did pretty good considering how steep the table was against us". Same thing as in minis. Somone cheats but you gotta play with him, do your best to pound him anyways. You beat him to a draw with his dirty pool, that's a victory in my book.sfcmac wrote: I don't mind that the OPFOR cheats, I'd just prefer that they'd quit denying it as if it were their "skills" that made them better. Believe me, I know NTC and JRTC almost as well as the OPFOR because of numerous rotations to both, we really don't need the OPFOR to cheat to foul things up, that happens pretty much all on it's own.
<snip>
'sides, those who justify themselves as better cause they win via cheating will be the hardest crushed in real life. Kinda cold, but you choose to work that way, that's reality.
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Cav Dog
- E5
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- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:12 am
A couple of personal examples;chrisswim wrote:How does OpFor cheat? I understand football: holding, illegal procedure....
In battle....do they turn off their MILES?....
-They won't let them turn off their MILES, but the shoe polish trick has the same effect. It works so well that several brigade task forces I supported had standing Article 15s for friendly troops caught "shining their boots" once they were "in the box." I've been on dismounted OPs that we put in at night to observe their assembly areas and I watched as they all "cleaned" off their MILES sensors prior to starting the battle. I can't say for certain but it sure looked like they passing kiwi around.
-God guns allow instant resetting of MILES gear. The result is that OPFOR vehicles have several lives. Once on a screen we busted a platoon of T72s sneaking through a wadi and killed them all. I watched as 10 minutes later an unmarked vehicle drove up and God-gunned them all back to life and they continued to march. When I asked our OC WTF, his response was they are simulating a larger formation. I said great, if there were more, we would have killed them too. And to make matters worse, no sooner does that conversation end and he tells me my whole team was killed. I said by what? he says ADA. I land, get out and check the code; 00 = god gun. (SA9, ZSU and SA7s all have discreet kill codes that are not 00!) I would never question the integrity of another officer, but I sure questioned his mother's fidelity. I had to spend the rest of the day in the dead tent.
Tactics are the opinion of the senior officer present.
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chrisswim
- E5
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- Location: Jacksonville, FL
Thanks guys....
When I play micro armor, I am going to benefit from the OPFOR Rule. So I lose a platoon of M1A2s and then after the enemy goes by, I hit them again with the same 'dead' M1A2. How sneaky of me isn't..?
My tanks, my rules, my OPFOR! So when you are accused of cheating, not it is the OPFOR rule....
One guy that has a game store, was in training, and told me years ago that he shot down an enemy helo with a TOW, or M16, just kept the data feed alive until lights start flashing.....
But does anyone want to play, remember, my tanks, my rules, my OPFOR!
When I play micro armor, I am going to benefit from the OPFOR Rule. So I lose a platoon of M1A2s and then after the enemy goes by, I hit them again with the same 'dead' M1A2. How sneaky of me isn't..?
My tanks, my rules, my OPFOR! So when you are accused of cheating, not it is the OPFOR rule....
One guy that has a game store, was in training, and told me years ago that he shot down an enemy helo with a TOW, or M16, just kept the data feed alive until lights start flashing.....
But does anyone want to play, remember, my tanks, my rules, my OPFOR!
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ZMONSTER
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:30 pm
- Location: Spring Branch, Texas
A long time ago in the field far away 1990, I used to cheat with the Miles gear. I was able to make 500m sniper shots with out firing blanks, by aiming at my target, then tapping the concussion sensor in the muzzle end of the laser projector. The OPFOR didn't even know where the shots came from.
Retire, got the t-shirt,
Bill
Retire, got the t-shirt,
Bill
Hit First, Hit Hard, Win!
Serving your country, is protecting your home and future.
Bill
Serving your country, is protecting your home and future.
Bill
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voltigeur
- E5
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- Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:26 am
- Location: Dallas Texas
Now that my Brits have arrived and I read the article I now know what the thread is about. Being in the Marines I was not afforded to opportunity to go to the NTC. The closest we had was 29 stumps. Most of our stuff there was all live fire so no OPFOR. Our VISMOD’s were tires stacked about the right dimensions so we could shoot them up.
I have been thinking of building the MATC (Micro Armor Training Center) to do exactly what the author is talking about. I found the old maneuver area on Google and sketched the areas in Red Thrust.
I was going to modify my rules that all hits by a weapon capable of penetrating the armor were kills (to simulate Miles). I would love to get a new player teach him the rules at the MATC and then have him dumped into European terrain and a thinking opponent. A table with cities, rules of engagement, and other things on an actual battle field.
One of my questions is cost. How much would a Tank Battalion & a Company of infantry at 1:1 scale cost at the hull and turret prices?
I have been thinking of building the MATC (Micro Armor Training Center) to do exactly what the author is talking about. I found the old maneuver area on Google and sketched the areas in Red Thrust.
I was going to modify my rules that all hits by a weapon capable of penetrating the armor were kills (to simulate Miles). I would love to get a new player teach him the rules at the MATC and then have him dumped into European terrain and a thinking opponent. A table with cities, rules of engagement, and other things on an actual battle field.
One of my questions is cost. How much would a Tank Battalion & a Company of infantry at 1:1 scale cost at the hull and turret prices?
I pray for Peace on Earth Good will toward men. Till then one round HE fire for Effect!
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DM
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:07 am
- Location: Washington, DC
About 15 years ago, while working for Congress (I've since found honest work), I had the opportunity to visit the NTC. I remember two things: 1) never having been so cold (we were driven out to the "battlefield" in an open-top HUMVEE before dawn) or so hot (after sun-up) in the same 24-hour span; and 2) seeing the OPFOR run rings around the "visiting team" (units of the 1st Cav, IIRC). Now I know why!
It was a great couple of days.
It was a great couple of days.
"Oderint dum metuant"