Fair Fight?

pvt64 · Post by **pvt64** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:23 pm

Just wondering if any of the more experienced players,familiar with GHQ's rules could give an opinion.

In the gamimg world how equal of a fight would a game between a modern USMC Division and an Iranian Tank Division be?

HKurban · Post by **HKurban** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:28 pm

Well one thing you have to realize is modern armies rarely deploy "divisions" to combat anymore. The largest organizational force to be used strategically is usually a Brigade with attachmens/detachments.

That being said, the strength of an Iranian armored unit really depends on what Tanks they use. The Iranians have a wide variety of AFVs ranging from old T72s, to T80s, and even their own invention. the Zulfiqar 1, 2, and 3, all of which are hard to classify since they haven't seen combat action, and Iran likes to keep most of their specs out of public eye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulfiqar_(tank)

Hope that helps.

pvt64 · Post by **pvt64** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:46 am

I understand. I really wanted to stay away from the Zilfiqar as nothing is really known about it. For the Iranians, I was going to use a mix of tanks. Each Tank Battalion would have the same types, but they would range from M60A1s to T-72s . You have (if a full division) 1 Battalion of 14 M1A1s against 7 battalions of 10 Iranian Tanks. Can they kill them fast enough? I figure that I would buils a brigade at at time. Reasonable?

dougeagle · Post by **dougeagle** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:50 am

Iran also has some British Chieftain Mk 5 tanks as well. But to answer your question...I don't think it would much of a fair fight at all. If you look at the stats between the Abrams tank and the M60, T-72 and Chieftain...the Abrams pretty much has more firepower and better armour...but there would also be fewer of them.
If you look up the Iraq/Iran war and do some research you will see that Iran wasn't very different from Iraq in how they operated. But, with the Iraq conflict going on, Iran could also be taking some notes as well...just a possible idea if you should choose to do something like this.

pvt64 · Post by **pvt64** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:58 am

Maybe I'll do 2 BTns eacj of T72, T80 & Zulfiqar and the Btn. for the mech bgd I'll do M60A1s.

voltigeur · Post by **voltigeur** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:44 am

The other thing you have to remember is that a Marine Division will be supported by an entire air wing. 3 squadrons of aircraft plus missle & gun support from the navy.

I have contemplated ho to do an amphib landing. If it iss done the way the Marines do it, it will not be a fair fight. You use theatre recon and deception to put the Marines in the weakest defended part of the whore line and give them heavy support to blast thier way ashore.

piersyf · Post by **piersyf** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:46 am

Agreed, not a fair fight, however it depends on how the Iranians fight and how flexible the rules are. The Iranians would lose, but could achieve a 'political' victory if they managed to inflict say 20% casualties or more. For the US to lose 500 to 1000 men in one battle would NOT be popular at home. That's one way you could even the outcomes...
Also, one minor correction to previous comments in this thread... there's nothing wrong with the Chieftain's gun if you have access to the latest ammo. It's just as good as the 120mm on the Abrams. All other comments still stand though; armour isn't up to it and neither is the fire control.
One small advantage the Chieftain has over the M1 (if you can call it an advantage... maybe last ditch survival strategy would be better) is the use of 120mm HESH. You don't have to penetrate armour to kill a tank, and the 120mm HESH will mash wheels, tracks, sights, bend barrels... and a joint mobility/firepower kill is still a dead vehicle for combat purposes...
One last thing, and again it depends on the rules; if the Marines are forced to fight a prepared enemy then the Iranian's will know that buried aircraft bombs are useful mines for the Abrams. 100kg of HE is enough to flip one on its back, and you'll get that from any 200kg+ GP bomb.

P

WargameHub · Post by **WargameHub** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:15 pm

I agree with piersyf. If the Iranians are dug in and get some fortifications it can even things up. You can also say it's during a Haboob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haboob) or a milder sandstorm. That would limit any range advantages and force the Abrams to close.