German Tank Platoon Organization

pmskaar · Post by **pmskaar** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:14 am

Hey Gang

I am working on putting painting up some German Pz III's and IV's for my Afrika Korps. My question is this: When the Germans had several types of tanks in a company, say both the short and long barreled Pz III's and later the Pz III N's with the short 75, did they mix these in platoons or did they keep the short and long barreled tanks in separated in different platoons?
In my readings, it may indicate what types and how many of what type were in the regiment but doesn't break this down to company and platoon. I have the Jentz books on Panzertruppen which are great for the regimental strengths and tank types in the regiments for a given period but does not tell me what the different companies and platoons had. Does anyone have any information on this?
One of the Flames of War books I read on the Afrika Korps seemed to indicate these were all mixed but I'm not sure that is the gospel here.
Thanks.

Pete - Binpicker, Out!

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:36 am

pmskaar wrote: I am working on putting painting up some German Pz III's and IV's for my Afrika Korps. My question is this: When the Germans had several types of tanks in a company, say both the short and long barreled Pz III's and later the Pz III N's with the short 75, did they mix these in platoons or did they keep the short and long barreled tanks in separated in different platoons? ...
One of the Flames of War books I read on the Afrika Korps seemed to indicate these were all mixed but I'm not sure that is the gospel here.

Pete:

The Germans panzertruppe were quite flexible and "task-oriented". I can't say what the official TO&Es might have been (they changed so often that we would have to aks what they were for a given unit on a given date, maybe at a given hour!

), but as a general practice I am confident that when a few upgraded panzers were received, they were deployed as the commander saw fit. That may mean as the regimental commander saw fit, or as the battalion or even company commander saw fit. This appears to be particularly true of the Afrika Korps, which always received only partial allocations of kit, and was notorious for its tendancy to localize any TOE, doctrine or equipment to serve the particular requirements of the desert campaigns.

In many matters the Germans seemed to like the 3 + 2 organization of a panzer platoon. So you might go that way -- one section of three older models, with a second section of two upgrades. Even here, bear in mind that the sections might not be all of the same older or same upgrade. So a platoon with 2 Pz IIIh and 1 Pz IIIj in one section, with a Pz IIIj2 and Pz IIIL in the other might be reasonable.

There is one particular outlyer to that -- the Pz IIIn. It is my understanding that this tank was not often issued into mixed Pz III formations, as it was seen as having a very different role. It was used in the flammpanzer and early Tiger formations as an "escort", and in pure platoons held at higher levels within the panzer divisions as support for the grenadiers. At least that is my understanding. Could be wrong. Been known to happen on occasion. Seems to be ever more frequent occasions as time goes by, if my kids are to be believed ...

WargameHub · Post by **WargameHub** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:50 pm

I've also read that DAK would fill in slots with inbound tanks fairly regularly. So as you lose tanks you just put the next tank and/or crew into that platoon.

pmskaar · Post by **pmskaar** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:48 pm

Hi Wargamehub

Thanks very much for that info. It does make sense to me that with German tactical flexibility and resourcefulness that they might move tanks around a bit at least at the company level. Since I am doing the single digit numbering system for the 15th Panzer, this will give me great ability to alter the composition of platoons within the company.
By the way, I use the Mein Panzer rules which are designed for single vehicles and squad level infantry organization.
Perhaps the Panzer III N's went to the medium companies of the regiment since they basically fulfilled the same role as the short barreled Pz IV's that they were replacing. Not sure about this but just a guess on my part.

Pete - Binpicker, Out!

pmskaar · Post by **pmskaar** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:49 pm

Hi Mark I

Thanks also to you as well. Your information is greatly appreciated as always.

Pete - Binpicker, Out!

Xveers · Post by **Xveers** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:34 am

If you DO want to see some specific information for "on paper" German tank deployment, I'd suggest wandering down to http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/ and checking out the KStN link on the far left.

In a nutshell, KStN are the official deployment standards that various German units were to have. So take a look around and you can see what a Tiger unit is supposed to have as of a certain day. Very useful for German players!

pmskaar · Post by **pmskaar** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:01 am

Hi Xveers

Thanks for the link. This is good for the official organizations as they were laid out for a given period but does not account for all the variations that resulted from operating in the real world. This is a very good link if constructing a particular German unit type with the combat and various support vehicles included.

Pete Binpicker, Out!

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:37 am

Note that the Pz III N arrived quite late and was mostly presentin Tunisia.

Most of them were in the 501 schwere tank battalion together with Tigers, but there were a few of them in 15, 21 and 10 Panser Divisions as well. The 7th and 8th companies of the 7th Panzer regioment (after February 43) were formed with the surviving Pz. III N of 501th battalion.

In January 43 the II/Pz Rgt 5 was removed from 21 PD and attached to 15 PD as II/Pz Rgt 8. A new I/5 Rgt was formed with surplus tamks available in Tunis: 13 Pz III lang, 6 Pz iIII N and 17 Pz IV lang. The new II/5 Pz rgt was formed renaming the Pz Abt 190 (from 90 leichte) which at the time had 52 Pz III (about half Pz IIIN) and 10 Pz IV.

Note that the schwere Pz Abt 504 (only part deployed) had Pz III lang in support to Tigers and not Pz III N.

Maurilio

pmskaar · Post by **pmskaar** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:17 am

Hi TAMMY

Thanks very much for the information. My source shows me that the Pz IIIN did not arrive for the 15th and 21st Panzer until after El Alamein. The Panzertruppen book by Jentz indicates that both of these units received some during the retreat to Tunisia. These are very good books by the way. It is a two volume set if you can still get them.

Pete - Binpicker, Out!

Xveers · Post by **Xveers** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:46 pm

pmskaar wrote:Hi Xveers

Thanks for the link. This is good for the official organizations as they were laid out for a given period but does not account for all the variations that resulted from operating in the real world. This is a very good link if constructing a particular German unit type with the combat and various support vehicles included.

Pete Binpicker, Out!

That'd be why I said "on paper" German tank deployment

It does however give someone a really good place to start when it comes to building a unit, as this is what ought to have been. You can then bend that to being something a bit more plausible/interesting as you need

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:40 pm

Hi pmskaar

I have Jentz volumes. The data I gave come from an Australian booklet "Panzers of Kasserine - The Afrika Korps in Tunisia". Campaign serie published by The Factory Publishing. (www.thefactorypublishing.com)

In the booklets there are various photos and profiles of Pz III N in Tunisia.

BaronvonFrank · Post by **BaronvonFrank** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:01 pm

Great site! Thanks!

BaronvonFrank