WW2 Micronauts - Scharnhorst and Gneisenau

[chasseur]

Hi,

The GHQ models of the twins list them as CB (Battlecruisers) but the updated Micronauts stats sheets found on the website list them as BB (Battleships).
Does anyone know why they are classified differently and which is most likely correct.

It does not matter greatly from a game point of view, but it does change base width and turning circles.

I am not too fussed either way, but am interested in what others think.

Cheers,
John

[Jmrino]

Tough call. At 32k tons, they were on the light side for a BB of the era (KGV was 38k) and carried only 11" guns and had relatively high speed (31 kts). But, if that is how the game plays them, then? Game designer judgement, needing more BBs in the German lineup?

Personally, we've always termed them as CB/BC in our games.

[Panzerleader71]

Were they not called "pocket" Battleships? They were lighter then the standard BB, but heavier then the standard Battlecruiser, I guess they would fall between both ratings in the game.

[Mk 1]

Were they not called "pocket" Battleships?

The term "Pocket Battleship" is usually applied to the Deutchland class (Deutchland, Scheer, Graf Spee). This was a British term to describe ships that were potentially as dangerous as a "capital ship", but were classified as cruisers under the Washington Treaty. The Germans classification was Panzerschiffe (Armored Ship, or more reasonably interpreted as Armored Cruiser).

The sisters are more often called battlecruisers, as they were of substantially larger size than any cruiser, and more reasonably classified with capital ships.

They were lighter then the standard BB, but heavier then the standard Battlecruiser, I guess they would fall between both ratings in the game.

They were heavier in standard displacement than several classes of British battleships, including the Revenge, Queen Elizabeth and Iron Duke classes. They were lighter than some well known battlecruisers, and heavier than others.

The definitions of what was a battlecruiser vs. a battleship is one of user preference. The "battlecruiser" Hood was substantially larger and heavier than the "battleship" Prince of Wales that accompanied it, and was even nominally larger and heavier than the Bismark that they faced.

It was also larger and heavier than every other battleship in the Royal Navy. In fact, until the Yamato and Musashi were commissioned the Hood was the largest warship built by any nation. Yet it was called a battlecruiser. Why? Because that's what the British wanted to call it, as it was expected to cruise in an independant role (being faster than any other ship in the RN's line of battle).

So don't get too hung up on the terminology.

The sisters were envisioned as capital ships. Whether you call them battlecruisers, battleships, fast battleships, or light battleships is largely a question of speaker's preference. They did not follow the British model of a battlecruiser, which was a ship of battleship size and battleship armament that sacrificed armor for speed. They were closer to the WW1 German model of a battlecruiser, which was a capital ship that was smaller and lighter in armament than a battleship. They were most closely matched to the French Dunkerques, which were ships meant to run-down AND out-fight any ocean raiders, but given that the Germans had little merchant activity to protect their role was never quite clear. Also they were notoriously poor seaships, and while lighter and faster than many battleships of their day, I would not be at all surprised if they were less handy.

But I claim no particular expertise on this. Just an occasional spectator to the naval issues....

[TAMMY]

The classification "battlecruiser" was given by the British mainly for the 11" caliber guns and the intended use as commerce raider.

For the German they were battlehips /schlachtshiffe) and not battlecruiser (schlachtkreuzer). The caliber of the guns was chosen in order not to delay their construction waiting for larger calibre guns.

In MTG the only difference would be the width of the base. For the rest their carachteristics are well illustrated by the ship data card. They have the same size (5) and protection (except the deck) of the Bismarck Class. Compare this with the porotection of a typical British battlecruiser.

[Donald M. Scheef]

Call them whatever you want. For game purposes, treat them as battleships.
Don S.

[chasseur]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. A most interesting discussion, but seemingly one that does not have a clear answer.

By the way, I have seen both CB and BC listed in different places for Battle Cruiser. My understanding is that the first letter is the overall class of ship and the second is the sub-class.

But I guess, as the discussion shows, the letter order may depend on whether you class a battle cruiser as
1. a Cruiser that is a Battleship
or
2. a Battleship that is a Cruiser.

Cheers,
John

[Donald M. Scheef]

Actually, the use of two-letter codes to identify ship types was (and, with some modifications, still is) a practice of the US Navy. Hobbyists commonly use these designations as shorthand for ships of all nations, although no other nations have used the designations formally.

The CB designation was applied only to the Alaska class. Despite the common description as "battlecruiser," the USN insisted that the Alaska class was a "large cruiser" rather than a battlecruiser. This is a reasonable distinction, as the design of the Alaska really was an expansion of existing cruiser classes.

I don’t think the USN ever used a BC designator. The only battlecruiser design of the USN, the Lexington class, was identified by the designator “CC.â€￾

Don S.

[OldNavyGuy]

Actually, the use of two-letter codes to identify ship types was (and, with some modifications, still is) a practice of the US Navy. Hobbyists commonly use these designations as shorthand for ships of all nations, although no other nations have used the designations formally.

The CB designation was applied only to the Alaska class. Despite the common description as "battlecruiser," the USN insisted that the Alaska class was a "large cruiser" rather than a battlecruiser. This is a reasonable distinction, as the design of the Alaska really was an expansion of existing cruiser classes.

I don’t think the USN ever used a BC designator. The only battlecruiser design of the USN, the Lexington class, was identified by the designator “CC.â€￾

Don S.

^This.

In the USN's system of nomenclature, the designator "B" stood for "Large." In addition to the Alaskas carrying the "B" designator, the Midways were, for example, classified as CVBs or Large Aircraft Carriers.

Contrary to popular belief, the Alaskas were not battle cruisers. Note, for example, that their hangars and catapults were mounted amidships rather than on the fantail, which was a design feature common to many of the pre-war cruiser designs. Like the Midway CVBs and the Fletcher, Sumner and Gearing-class DDs, the Alaskas were representative of the kind of ships the USN would have been building had the Washington Naval Treaty never been signed.

[hauptgrate]

S&G also went against the "traditional" view of the BC as put forth by Jackie Fisher before WWI. Fisher's concept was to sacrifice armor for speed, and yet have a battleship armament (at least in caliber, if not number). The S&G sacrificed armament for speed and armor -- although there were plans to upgrade them to 6 15" guns at some time. Realistically, even the WWI german BCs didn't quite follow the Fisher model and neither really did the Hood. So, basically a BC is in the eyes of the beholder...

[Donald M. Scheef]

Just for fun:
Since we were discussing the "BC" or "CB" nomenclature for battlecruisers, why was an armored cruiser (and its descendent, the heavy cruiser) a "CA" rather than an "AC"? What was an "AC"?

Two ACs became relatively famous for different reasons. Can anyone identify them and explain their fame?

What other types of ships had identifiers beginning with "A"?

Don S.

[Donald M. Scheef]

Yes, AC is used only for colliers. Since there is no use for colliers now, the AC designator is not used any more.

The collier that sank in the Bermuda Triangle was USS Cyclops, AC-4.

The other famous collier that I had in mind was converted to another sort of ship (the first of her kind in the USN) and re-named, then converted into anoter type of ship (retaining the same name) before being sunk in the SW Pacific during WWII.

Don S.

[OldNavyGuy]

Yes, AC is used only for colliers. Since there is no use for colliers now, the AC designator is not used any more.

The collier that sank in the Bermuda Triangle was USS Cyclops, AC-4.

The other famous collier that I had in mind was converted to another sort of ship (the first of her kind in the USN) and re-named, then converted into anoter type of ship (retaining the same name) before being sunk in the SW Pacific during WWII.

Don S.

That would be Langley (converted to the first CV in the USN, then later converted to an aircraft transport, in which role she was lost at Coral Sea), ex-Jupiter.

[OldNavyGuy]

Just for fun:
Since we were discussing the "BC" or "CB" nomenclature for battlecruisers, why was an armored cruiser (and its descendent, the heavy cruiser) a "CA" rather than an "AC"? What was an "AC"?

Two ACs became relatively famous for different reasons. Can anyone identify them and explain their fame?

What other types of ships had identifiers beginning with "A"?

Don S.

AD = Destroyer Tender
AR = Repair Ship
AS = Submarine Tender
ACS = Auxiliary Crane Ship
AG = Miscellaneous
AGDS = Deep Submergence Support Ship
AGF = Miscellaneous Command Ship
AGFF = Auxiliary General Frigate
AGM = Missile Range Instrumentation Ship
AGOR = Oceanographic Research Ship
AGOS = Ocean Surveillance Ship
AGS = Surveying Ship
AGSS = Auxiliary Research Submarine
AE = Ammunition Ship
AF = Stores Ship
AFS = Combat Stores Ship
AO = Oiler
AOE = Fast Combat Support Ship
AOR = Replenishment Oiler
AH = Hospital Ship
AK = Cargo Ship
AKR = Vehicle Cargo Ship
AOG = Gasoline Tanker
AOT = Transport Oiler
AP = Transport
ARC = Cable Repair Ship
ARL = Repair Ship, Small
ARS = Salvage Ship
ASR = Submarine Rescue Ship
ATF = Fleet Ocean Tug
ATS = Salvage and Rescue Ship
AVB = Aviation Logistic Support Ship
AVM = Guided Missile Ship
AVT = Auxiliary Aircraft Landing Training Ship