88mm Flak 36 Survival

[General Retreat]

Just how is the 88mm Flak 36 supposed to survive on the gaming battlefield? I'm using MATG WWII rules. A good hit by arty and they're gone. That's what's happening to me.

Your thoughts. (Let's see if I can start another knock-down, dragged-out argument. )

[TAMMY]

It is not a problem of the 88mm Flak. No AT gun will survive to a "... good hit by arty".. In the real world it's not easy to get this good hit.

In game terms their survival is quite low because you cannot mask them as in the real world. Moreiver, wityh the artillery it is esasier to hit a "point" target than in the reality due to the MATG rules for direct fire of the artillery. .

[Doug B]

I think historically 88 FlaK was very vulnerable, hence the move to make a proper AT platform rather than ad hoc use of the FlaK.

Beyond that AT guns in general were vulnerable to pretty much everything. Survivability was usually based on concealment and firing from ambush. This often wasn't enough, explaining the development and use where possible of a wide variety of self-propelled AT artillery. Most table-top games tend to make it too easy to "see" the other guy, so using AT guns is even more of a challenge than in real life.

[General Retreat]

That's a pretty good answer--unfortunately.

[Gompel]

How about changing the rules?
My rule is: if you don't like 'm, change 'm. Haha

[General Retreat]

Could beef up its defense value. It's only 2 now.

[TAMMY]

No. If you lokk at the defense value of towed guns (ATG abd artillery) it seems related to the size of the equipment (with some exception here and there)

Try to use the terrain cover like improved position or buildings. However this will not hide your 88 and it will remain a preferred target. of your adversary.

[RedLeif]

Hi GR,
Here's a couple of things you might try or consider. (or my interp of the rules is whacked , in which case call me on it please)

Put it in concealling terrain, woods, buildings. and hold its fire until the very end of Standard Fire Phase. the enemy can NOT target it with direct or indirect fire in the WWII rules UNTIL it fires. Yes the FO's can see it in the next Joint Plot Phase, after standard fire but none or only a few other 'standard fire' weapons would be able to target it.

Also, put it in a medium improved position (they cost 6 points each to field). this would force a +2 on the attackers cohesion roll 'to Fire',(and in indirect arty's case ' to Deviate') & to the CRT roll IF the guns haven't fired yet that turn. Since arty fires before standard fire, the stuff in Improved positions gets the benefit during arty fire phase. Since 88's have 360 degree fire the issue with 'not being able to change facing (rule 11.4.5) doens't apply to them, they don't need to change facing to shoot to a side.

example:
Turn 3 - fire 88's (in Med Imp Pos) at those british devils down range at the end of standard fire phase (you hit and only a couple can fire back say, its long and he misses, or more likely their in the move posture and can't fire), during joint plot a 'stationary' FO spots it and targets it for arty fire. - ask to see your opponents arty fire sheet at this point and make sure eth recorded FO was in the fire posture - did teh recorded stand move (y = plot invalid - no fire)and could it see your 88's (no - plot invaild - no fire)?
Turn 4 - you haven't fired this turn (and your using the standard rules - no national arty efficiency, so no longer delay) so the arty the brit FO called gets the +2 to Cohesion die rolls to arrive, to deviate and CRT rolls and any direct arty get the +2 to fire and the +2 to CRT. Your stands get "S"ed. because some of the arty landed (auto 'S') and maybe one gun got a further D. During your fire phase The 88's remain silent - they 're in an artillery impact marker and can't fire out. No one can see them either, so the brit can't plot them again and if your lucky he forgot to call for duration fire, if he remembered, your 88's will likley be goners soon. IF he can't plot them, indirect arty cant hit them next turn and you can repeat turn 3' s behavior again. And direct arty won't see them in trun 5 'cause they haven't fired yet (arty fire is before standard fire and your oppoent isn't plotting his direct fire arty (maybe)).

This is why I have a house rule about arty fire. First consider the rules about artillery fire effects, rule 7.6.8 says arty blocks LOS -implying 'totally'. Which ,when considered with 6.1.5 implies nothing can fire in or out of it at all. Consider a house rule which treats stands in arty impact markers like smoke (7.6.9) they can fire out of and enemy can fire into but at an additional +3 to die roll. And like smoke nothing can fire through the impact marker. I personally recommend you limit this 'fire out of arty' ability to fully enclosed armored vehicles. Which doesn't help your 88's much but lets tanks fire out (with massive Cohesion penalties) ,so they've got to get lucky.


Good Luck
RedLeif

[green beanie]

you also have to realize that the Germans would make a PAK line, that is dug in anti-tank guns and use their tanks to lure tanks into ambush on the PAK line. That was one of Rommel's best tricks in North Africa. His Pz III's would lure British tanks that were out ranged by the 88's and only could fire solid shot AT rounds onto the PAK line and distroy them. It was not until the Brits recieved US M-3's Grants that also fired HE rounds that they could try and take on a PAK line.

[RedLeif]

My example failed to illustrate the bonuses of the concealing terrain (woods or buildings) I recommended you put them in . The guns would only 'disappear' if they are in such terrain, the medium improved position doesn't do that.

sorry for any confusion.

Leif

[RedLeif]

Another couple of thoughts, TAMMY is right,88's were BIG targets and should have a 2 Def. value.

If you put your med imp pos in a wood or buildings the stand cant be seen until it fires and your opponent pays +2 for the Med Pos and +2 for the woods or light buildings, thats a 20% die modifier for cohesion for him to fire and deviate with arty firing at it as well as a +4 to the CRT roll. And even if the 88 fires early, during the fire phase the cohesion bene's go away but the +4 to the CRT roll remains.

Put your 88's and your ATG's and your Inf. in med imp positions in a village or woods or even better a town (heavy buildings) and the infantry at least, isn't coming out easily at all.

Good luck
RedLeif

[sultanbev]

In my own rules we have a fire priority system "borrowed" from Modern Spearhead, which means that any tanks about have to target enemy tanks before they can fire at ATG (if both are visible simultaneously). Thus using combined arms tactics will help their surviveability no end.

It won't make any difference to an artillery observer if present, who can target the 88s if he can see them. However a typical battery of 4x 105mm guns has a blast area of 35m radius in WW2 era in my rules, and the first salvo miss distance is 1D20 -3cm (ie 0-170m), so there is a reasonable probability of a miss. Even if the 88s are caught in the blast area, towed guns are only destroyed on a D10 roll of 1-4, although the crew can take hits and are suppressed.

So you may have to look at the indirect fire capabilites in the GHQ rules. And remember early war most armies don't have effective OP teams for indirect artillery - if you are doing pre-August 1942 in the desert, or on the Russian front, the ability of the Allies to call down indirect artillery rapidly is very limited.

Mark

[opsctr]

When thinking about how Rommel used ATG's in North Africa remember he took advantage of British doctrine knowing they did not have sufficient FO's, normally didn't have air superiority, and allowed their tanks to "go off on their own" without significant infantry support out of range of supporting artillery. Also remember the lethality of the "88" far outranged all Allied tank weapons at the time. I also seem to remember something about better optics equaling higher accuracy with a better chance of a first shot kill... Will

[TAMMY]

I have a question on one of the possible solution.

I have always understood the terrain as blocking LOS behind it not in it. For example, an 88 target in a wood will receive a +2 to Cohesion and CRT before firing but will remasin visible, It would be invisible if deployed behind the wood (blocking terrain) but in this case he would enable to fire, at least to his front.

I am wrong?

[RedLeif]

Hi TAMMY,
As I read it, the rules say 'LOS must be traced from the center of the ‘spotting’ stand to the center of the target stand’ and ‘nothing can block this line, if it does there is no LOS’ (summary of 6.1.1).

Then the terrain effects chart (TEC) says ‘if a ‘target’ (of fire or spotting) is in terrain type N there are cohesion and CRT penalties IF it can be seen’. And the LOS column tells you whether it can be seen or not. But there is the '‡' symbol for some LOS blcoking terrain (known as 'concealing') which means the target can only be seen if it fires first and, if it does so, stands firing at it lose the cohesion modifiers but not the CRT modifiers when firing at it.

Finally the TEC says “Terrain type never effects stand firing out, only those firing into terrainâ€￾ and by association I think this implies sighting as well as firing.

So I read this to mean anything in terrain marked “‡Yesâ€￾ in the ‘LOS blocked’ column of the TEC is ‘invisible’ unless it fires out of this terrain first.

So I would conclude in your example of an 88 stand in a forest/wood terrain that it cannot be seen until it fires out. And if the woods were between an opponent and the 88 stand neither would be able to see the other. (I agree with you on this)

I think some players have made a house rule which allows the 1st inch of a concealing terrain to be seen 'into' (with the penalties if they fire into it or shell it with arty, but the rules don't say this anywhere.

There’s also an unwritten rule (added to the TEC of the MS rules) that adjacent stands have LOS to each other regardless of terrain type. They still pay cohesion and CRT if needed but they have LOS to each other. I'd strongly encourage players to adopt this in MATG as well

Saluti,
RedLeif