silence is not Golden

[whoa Mohamed]

The Negative comments have far outweighed the positive regarding certain figures and models GHQ has produced over the last few seasons.
Its highly unlikely that we may see any further tank riders offered in the future . unless the silent majority have voiced their approval by purchases.
this would be a shame as i think they were superb and added life to the table top, So if we dont see further offerings we have only our silence to blame.

[av8rmongo]

The Negative comments have far outweighed the positive regarding certain figures and models GHQ has produced over the last few seasons.
Its highly unlikely that we may see any further tank riders offered in the future . unless the silent majority have voiced their approval by purchases.
this would be a shame as i think they were superb and added life to the table top, So if we dont see further offerings we have only our silence to blame.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make but I will say I disagree with your point as I interpret it, and I'm open to correction on that point. GHQ would be doing themselves, and their customers, a disservice if if they give up on tank riders, infantry packs, the Puma, or any other item that has garnered negative comments.

The truth is though that these items are not the same scale as the excellent vehicles GHQ produces. There is high demand for these items. But not in any condition and not at any price. GHQ raised prices by ~30% which fundamentally changed the value calculation. GHQ should look at the customer's concerns as a chance to look at their processes to see if the return on investment is better with the status quo or with redesigns of these items.

You, and others, may be willing to purchase items that aren't really "in scale" but the question is would you not buy a redesigned item that was in scale? I have no idea how much it costs to design/produce an item. But it is still a market economy and the market is registering its displeasure. GHQ can listen to the market or not.

[CG2]

I think it depends on the model. Tank Riders are 'nice-to-haves' but it won't stop most people fielding a Russian WW2 army. The Puma has certainly stopped me investing in a modern German army in the same way that the lack of up-to-date models has stopped me investing in a British one.

Obviously, it's up to each person to decide but I'm not sure what mechanisms GHQ have in place to work out what people would like to buy. Except for the Micronaut thread where Donald does such as excellent job, the comments on this forum tend to just end up with everything under the sun being listed with no real consensus (except on rare occasions). I suspect that if people were continuously asking for a re-scaled Puma, GHQ might consider it but I haven't seen much comment since 'Puma-gate'.

[panzergator]

Regarding the modern German Puma...

I haven't bought any, so I can't compare them except from an image found on the internet with both the GHQ LeoA6 and Puma in the photo, side by side. The Puma seems a lot bigger than the Leo, and I know that both vehicles most likely are built to conform with German rail standards. I also know the tolerances are very stringent. The vehicles have to be able to pass through rail tunnels. Hope it wasn't just confusing English and metric measures, LOL.

It would be nice to have the Pumas, without add-on armor, in a four vehicle pack with the fifth blister devoted to add-on armor which customers could add or not.

I suspect we will see more vehicles with modular armor in the future and some consideration and planning for this might pay off well.

[av8rmongo]

Regarding the modern German Puma...

I haven't bought any, so I can't compare them except from an image found on the internet with both the GHQ LeoA6 and Puma in the photo, side by side. The Puma seems a lot bigger than the Leo, and I know that both vehicles most likely are built to conform with German rail standards. I also know the tolerances are very stringent. The vehicles have to be able to pass through rail tunnels. Hope it wasn't just confusing English and metric measures, LOL.

It would be nice to have the Pumas, without add-on armor, in a four vehicle pack with the fifth blister devoted to add-on armor which customers could add or not.

I suspect we will see more vehicles with modular armor in the future and some consideration and planning for this might pay off well.

Would you mind posting a link to that photo. I haven't seen one with them side by side that was 't a photo-shopped montage or something where the perspective made size evaluation difficult.

[panzergator]

GHQ Puma/Leo2 comparison pic. Not an A6.

Here ya go ( I think). This is my first attempt at posting a pic from photobucket.

FRG_PumaIFV_Compare_zps6xzkz9oa.jpg

Clicking on either the IMG or the URL got the pic. Let me know if it doesn't work.

You can see the Puma is "HUUUUJJJJ!" It isn't just the add-on armor that does it, which makes me suspect that a scale error has been made. I'm still looking for a pic on the internet with the real vehicles side by side.

[panzergator]

Some interesting stats...


Length: Puma - 7.4m LEO II - 7.7m

Width Puma - 3.7m LEO II - 3.7m

Height Puma - 3m LEO II - 3m

The article didn't tell me if the Puma stats were with add-on armor, so let's assume the basic vehicle. The Puma should be shorter, and of similar width and height. Even considering the GHQ Puma has add-on armor, it sure looks out-sized to me. It sure isn't going to fit through the standard German rail tunnel, and that's the kiss of death for dimensions for armored vehicles that travel to training areas by rail two or three times a year.

This convinces me that GHQ needs to take a hard look at a redo. I'm going to go with the new German wheeled APC for now when I add infantry to my German force. Given what I've read on force levels and spending in NATO, I think we will see plenty of Marder IIIs still in use for the next few years.

[av8rmongo]

Thanks for the pic. Lol, I have the models, I thought you had a pic of the real beasts side by side.

[CG2]

As far as I can see, Puma was designed with 3 separate armour packages, starting with A - airportable, B - rail transportable and C - combat. They appear to increase from A to C using add-on armour with C being the heaviest. The GHQ model is the 'C' with a width of 3.9m, which is 10 tonnes heavier than the 'A' at 3.43m.

The latest Leo is also much more heavily armoured so to be fair to GHQ, you are comparing a 'fat' Puma to a 'thin' Leopard. A standard 2A6 is 3.7m wide as stated above but there are additional add-on armour packages and I'm not quite sure how wide a 'fat' Leopard would be but the Spanish Leopard 2E is 3.75m although I have seen pictures of Leopards with armour packages similar to teh Puma which are much wider (don't know if these are more than demonstrators).

[panzergator]

CG2,

I am aware of the limitations of the comparison, as I believe I pointed out. However, the basic body still appears to be larger. It was only a start. That is why I included dimensions in a second post of what I THINK is the basic Puma to the basic Leo II.

My post was never intended to be the definitive answer to the question. I'm still looking for more concrete info. Meanwhile, I had this pic, which AV8RMONGO asked me to post. Please see my post with the dimensions above. after the pic.

I'm also assuming that the basic vehicle is the one which would be transported by rail, with the desired package of armor carried separately, to be fitted, time permitting, at the destination.

[CG2]

Hi Panzergator,

No - I agree with you that the model is clearly oversize to the point that personally I can't live with it. The model is definitely the 'C' package, not the rail-transportable 'B'.

[panzergator]

I'm with you. I will go with the Boxer or Marder III until I know, one way or the other. It will be a while before I fill out my German mech bn, so I can wait. I will keep looking for more info. Perhaps GHQ would weigh in on the issue with the info they used for the model.

Given GHQs excellent performance over the years, I'm not really going to complain.

[panzergator]

av8rmongo,

Sorry for the confusion. I'm still looking for the real ones. Will post it if I find it.