Well, 2-33 was the unit that had M103 heavies in the Fifties, so your battalion had an oddity of its own..
I got to Friedberg in July of 1975 and my company flew down in a Skycrane personnel box to pick up M60A2s from the training team at Vilseck. It was the second company in the battalion to get 'em (B Company was in Vilseck with the training team when I arrived) In the first few days we applied some modifications like the top-loading air-cleaner boxes and the external phone box that was attached to the right-rear deck rather than on the fender. Then we started a four- or six- week training period (I don't remember which), after which we road-marched to Hohenfels for tactical training. I left Friedberg in '78, so I don't know exactly when the A2s were withdrawn, but I don't think they lasted any longer than they had to, and the general consensus seems to be it was only 5 years, when the M60A3 became available. I would guess 1-32 and 3-33 got priority in Germany for the A3 issue because of the A2's issues and they were the first units to get them in Europe.
As I noted in another post, 3-33 was also, apparently, authorized to wear the "Pickle" branch insignia, rather than the M26 on crossed sabers, on their uniforms.
GHQ M60A2s
Moderators: dnichols, GHQ, Mk 1
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panzergator
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panzergator
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Many thanks to cama and chrisswim, who came through with foundlings for the M60A2 battalion. Through their good offices, 3rd Armored Division's (US) 1-32 Armor 1975-80 Bandits will live again, if only in the diminutive.
You are very gracious representatives of our hobby.
You are very gracious representatives of our hobby.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.
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chrisswim
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- Location: Jacksonville, FL
M60A2
Panzer Mike,
We have just identified them in the storage facility (indoors), and about to move them. But before we do, quick check on hoses, etc crank the engine for a bit. Then move it to maintenance ship for mechanical reliability, get everything signed off, tracks, optics, engine, fuel processing , (not worried about commo, you will provide your own),etc. Then we will have to ship to transportation depot. One of them we had to take of the metal stands on the concrete pad that it was displayed on out fron of the base.
We will look for ammo for ya,, he he. Good luck with that functioning.
Glad to work with you. Enjoy, hope you win!
We have just identified them in the storage facility (indoors), and about to move them. But before we do, quick check on hoses, etc crank the engine for a bit. Then move it to maintenance ship for mechanical reliability, get everything signed off, tracks, optics, engine, fuel processing , (not worried about commo, you will provide your own),etc. Then we will have to ship to transportation depot. One of them we had to take of the metal stands on the concrete pad that it was displayed on out fron of the base.
We will look for ammo for ya,, he he. Good luck with that functioning.
Glad to work with you. Enjoy, hope you win!
Chris
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chatto
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Hey Gator, question for you. Out of curiosity how did the A2 handle the conventional shells being fired? The story goes that they made a mess of the Sheridans because of recoil ruining the guns on the light hull... how about with your A2's?
Looking to know purely out of interest and because if GHQ ever makes A2's again, I'll be buying some to add to one of my imagi-nation armies, so I want to properly have them work through any issues...
Looking to know purely out of interest and because if GHQ ever makes A2's again, I'll be buying some to add to one of my imagi-nation armies, so I want to properly have them work through any issues...
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panzergator
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The short answer is "Yes, but..." There's a lot more to the M60A2 question than just the electronics.
The heavier tank did help absorb the effects of the conventional round to a degree. The missile system could still be a problem, but not quite as bad. There are other things harmful to electronics that are environmental constants in Germany - rain, snow, mud, heat, cold, and just sitting still in the motor pool, None of those are friendly. After a short time in the field, the turret floor has about two inches of mud packed into it. That has to be got out, and you couldn't use a high pressure hose...
The rounds were heavy and vulnerable. They were encased in a neoprene condom which had to be pealed back as it was loaded into the chamber. If the combustible cartridge was torn in the loading process, millions and millions of tiny grains of powder would spill all over the turret. Not good.
The A2 seemed more at an advantage on the defense. Tankers want to attack. When "Active Defense" was retired for "Airland Battle," the A2 had to go. It took FOREVER to get two rounds off because of the breech cycling after the first round.
The short barrel meant low pressure, which equaled low muzzle velocity (MBT-70, which was also 152mm, was longer, with a higher muzzle velocity). The conventional 152mm round was slow. After the gun fired, the tank rocked back and then forward, the TC brought his binoculars up to his eyes. picked up the round in flight, and followed it into the target. Meanwhile the CBSS blasted air in the breech to clear out the remnants of the caseless cartridge, the turret actuator stabilized the hydraulic pressure, and the round struck the target. The 105mm gunned tank was MUCH faster. And the 152mm's low muzzle velocity meant no sabot round, so it was stuck with HEAT. There was supposed to be a HEP and a canister round, but we never saw those.
The short barrel DID mean that it was easier to traverse in the woods and in towns.
The tanks were brand-new (from storage) when we picked them up. The battalion had specially trained warrant officer and hand-picked mechanics, as well as a special program to keep things going as the tanks were introduced. I spent a relatively short time as a platoon leader, so I didn't see all the bad stuff as the tanks motored on to tracer burnout. But it was my first tank, so I didn't know if it was more difficult than the A1 or not. They ALL fall apart just sitting in the motor pool and keeping a decent deadline report for any tank fleet is a challenge. But I was later the BMO for the adjacent A1(RISE)(AOS) battalion and learned how fortunate I was.
Somewhere in the back of my mind, there was always the suspicion that the only reason we were issued the A2 was because the stockage A1s we had were sent to Israel during their '73 War. They had ignored the necessity for the combined arms team, operating a number of tank-pure units, and got eaten alive by RPGs (not Saggers, as you often hear).
There is a lot more, but this is getting long enough. I am very glad the Russians didn't come while the A2 was in service.
When you add the A2 to your fleet, be sure to upgrade the engine, tracks, suspension, electronics, and fire control. Swap out the 152mm gun for the 120mm smoothbore, and get an add-on armor package that molds some Chobham armor around the turret and glacis.
The heavier tank did help absorb the effects of the conventional round to a degree. The missile system could still be a problem, but not quite as bad. There are other things harmful to electronics that are environmental constants in Germany - rain, snow, mud, heat, cold, and just sitting still in the motor pool, None of those are friendly. After a short time in the field, the turret floor has about two inches of mud packed into it. That has to be got out, and you couldn't use a high pressure hose...
The rounds were heavy and vulnerable. They were encased in a neoprene condom which had to be pealed back as it was loaded into the chamber. If the combustible cartridge was torn in the loading process, millions and millions of tiny grains of powder would spill all over the turret. Not good.
The A2 seemed more at an advantage on the defense. Tankers want to attack. When "Active Defense" was retired for "Airland Battle," the A2 had to go. It took FOREVER to get two rounds off because of the breech cycling after the first round.
The short barrel meant low pressure, which equaled low muzzle velocity (MBT-70, which was also 152mm, was longer, with a higher muzzle velocity). The conventional 152mm round was slow. After the gun fired, the tank rocked back and then forward, the TC brought his binoculars up to his eyes. picked up the round in flight, and followed it into the target. Meanwhile the CBSS blasted air in the breech to clear out the remnants of the caseless cartridge, the turret actuator stabilized the hydraulic pressure, and the round struck the target. The 105mm gunned tank was MUCH faster. And the 152mm's low muzzle velocity meant no sabot round, so it was stuck with HEAT. There was supposed to be a HEP and a canister round, but we never saw those.
The short barrel DID mean that it was easier to traverse in the woods and in towns.
The tanks were brand-new (from storage) when we picked them up. The battalion had specially trained warrant officer and hand-picked mechanics, as well as a special program to keep things going as the tanks were introduced. I spent a relatively short time as a platoon leader, so I didn't see all the bad stuff as the tanks motored on to tracer burnout. But it was my first tank, so I didn't know if it was more difficult than the A1 or not. They ALL fall apart just sitting in the motor pool and keeping a decent deadline report for any tank fleet is a challenge. But I was later the BMO for the adjacent A1(RISE)(AOS) battalion and learned how fortunate I was.
Somewhere in the back of my mind, there was always the suspicion that the only reason we were issued the A2 was because the stockage A1s we had were sent to Israel during their '73 War. They had ignored the necessity for the combined arms team, operating a number of tank-pure units, and got eaten alive by RPGs (not Saggers, as you often hear).
There is a lot more, but this is getting long enough. I am very glad the Russians didn't come while the A2 was in service.
When you add the A2 to your fleet, be sure to upgrade the engine, tracks, suspension, electronics, and fire control. Swap out the 152mm gun for the 120mm smoothbore, and get an add-on armor package that molds some Chobham armor around the turret and glacis.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.
-
panzergator
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- Posts: 3466
- Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:44 am
Many, many thanks to chrisswim and cama, who, between them, have connected me with 70 - SEVENTY!!! - GHQ M60A2s, enough to complete a whole GHQ A2 battalion and provide a good start on the next one. With those I already had, I need only 14 more to complete the second battalion. The acquisition budget is pretty much exhausted for the moment, but I would appreciate any more information concerning this particular product for purchase in the near future. Only GHQ, please. I have a number of the Brand X ones, but plan to convert them to 120mm smooth bore gun..
Cama's shipment included some truly historic models "fabrique en Canada," in packaging I had not seen before, but evidently go back to the beginning of (GHQ) time, truly something to appreciate.
I have some shopping to do at "thetourist," who is liquidating his 1/285 collection in favor of 3mm and has a good collection on offer, consisting of Brits, French, German, and US. Get in touch with him if you have some requirements. He, as well as cama and chrisswim, offer a rapid turnaround.
Cama's shipment included some truly historic models "fabrique en Canada," in packaging I had not seen before, but evidently go back to the beginning of (GHQ) time, truly something to appreciate.
I have some shopping to do at "thetourist," who is liquidating his 1/285 collection in favor of 3mm and has a good collection on offer, consisting of Brits, French, German, and US. Get in touch with him if you have some requirements. He, as well as cama and chrisswim, offer a rapid turnaround.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.
-
chrisswim
- E5
- Posts: 7269
- Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:22 pm
- Location: Jacksonville, FL
Delighted to work with PanzerGator. I did pick up a bunch from the tourist, he still has more, but not as much as he used to. Glad I had a few m60a2, picked some up. I think I owned these M60'sites before.
... does any one has Amy surplus: M1 with broken barrels or just the hulls? Man 10 ton trucks or Man 7 ton truck? Leopard 1 hulls ?
Or anything else...
.., send PM.
... does any one has Amy surplus: M1 with broken barrels or just the hulls? Man 10 ton trucks or Man 7 ton truck? Leopard 1 hulls ?
Or anything else...
.., send PM.
Chris
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panzergator
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- Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:44 am
The Southern Comfortable States announces the arrival of a substantial shipment of M60A2s in a thoroughly hermetically sealed container. All vehicles arrived in a excellent condition. The Southern Comfortable States wish to express appreciation for the generous terms offered and complete satisfaction with this transaction.
This shipment permits the organization and assignment of a second battalion of M60A2s to 3AD.
This shipment permits the organization and assignment of a second battalion of M60A2s to 3AD.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.
-
chrisswim
- E5
- Posts: 7269
- Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:22 pm
- Location: Jacksonville, FL
To Souther Comfortable States...
The Commonwealth is hoping the the CSX Sealand and Norfolk transportation links worked to get the M60A2, recovery, and support vehicles. Sealed containers to protect the electronics front the salary air and potentionally saltwater.
Hope theverything defense initiatives of Southern Comfort, is suitable. The Commonwealth is delighted to partnership with I-magine Naions in the peace of the world. Out International Business Department looks forward to doing business.
The Commonwealth is hoping the the CSX Sealand and Norfolk transportation links worked to get the M60A2, recovery, and support vehicles. Sealed containers to protect the electronics front the salary air and potentionally saltwater.
Hope theverything defense initiatives of Southern Comfort, is suitable. The Commonwealth is delighted to partnership with I-magine Naions in the peace of the world. Out International Business Department looks forward to doing business.
Chris