Show me your Leopards and M60A3s.

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:20 am

I recently began work on a set of German Leopard 2A6's and M60A3s. Both are using the Tri-color camo scheme. I am struggling a little with the camo colors. It took me a while till I got the green color just right. The black was easy but the brown color, I am using, is being fussy. I am currently using Model Masters Tri-color Brown and am not happy with the way it looks. I am using strait out of the bottle and it went on a little glossy, so I won't know how it will look till I hit it with some dull coat. I have only done about two, so before I get to far I wanted some input.

It would be a big help if everyone could post a pic of there German Leopard's (any version) in the tricolor paint scheme. In addition, if you could post the color used and whether its been lightened or right out of the bottle.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:48 pm

I put some pics of a Leopard 1 in 3 tone NATO using Vallejo colors near the bottom of this thread:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=308006

I was testing out a new airbrush so the black is a little overdone and NATO 3 tone is hard edged so YMMV.

Also, in USAEUR, all the M60A3s were painted in MERDC Winter Temperate. NATO 3 tone is factory applied and the M60s were in country and operational long before 3 tone was universally adopted.

Of course your tanks so your call...

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:23 pm

Cav Dog,

Thanks for the response and pictures. I will try and post an example of what I have done so far. As for the M60A3, how long did they use the MERDC, was it until they switched to the M1s? An if so, I assume they are painting the M1s In tricolor.

Your input would explain why I did not see any US M60s with that scheme, other than a Tamiya model kit with reactive armor, when doing a google search. However there were a few taiwanese examples.. Looks like that is what they are.

As for my choice, I am an ** CENSORED ** engineer, so the correct scheme is the only choice.. Or a close copy.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:41 am

I second CavDog. We painted our M60A1(RISE)(AOS) MERDC in 1977. M60A3s replaced them and the adjacent M60A2s after I left. M60A3s and the M1(105mm gun) were delivered from the factory in the base medium green used in the European Temperate MERDC scheme and the rest of the came was applied by the units. I saw a lot of 'em still in medium green and MERDC in the early 80s in Germany. I saw National Guard M60A3s in MERDC, both in the Euro-Temperate (Fort Riley) and a brown scheme (South Carolina) until the early 90s..

The only A3s I've seen in the three-tone NATO were gate guards and (incorrectly painted) museum pieces. Same for the pics on line. Some may be in private ownership, too, but I don't believe A3s ever served in the NATO scheme.

That is not to say yours couldn't have been recalled to active duty in exigent circumstances, or soldiered on in a National Guard unit until it had to be called up.

There have been several proposals to upgrade M60A3s - stronger engine, better suspension, updated fire control, more armor, better 105mm ammo, 120mm gun, etc. Maybe you have some of those.

I've talked to some armor guys and the "take" is that the M60s and the M113s just couldn't keep up with the M1s and M2s, but that doesn't mean that units wouldn't have been thrown into the breech using whatever was on hand. As Donn Starry said, it's likely a "come-as-you-are war." Ya gotta run what ya brung.

The Testor's Model Master Medium Green was a good start when I painted my collection years ago, but the last time I tried it, it seemed too dark. It works for the Euro-temperate MERDC, but I'm not so sure about the NATO scheme. You might try painting the green, black, and brown, then lightening it with a light wash.

You can find patterns for MERDC on line by just searching "US tank camouflage in Germany." Post pics when you can.

chrisswim · Post by **chrisswim** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:36 am

For NATO 3-tone, I utilize Testors spray Medium Green, the Military Brown, then Black. I have seen others utilize the same colors. The French Green does seem to be a lighter shade, at least pics that I have seen by Julie Ludman.
Paint batch, fading, sunlight and color tinting of the camera can affect the look.
Send at PM with your email, I will send some pics.
You can also check my FB page Chris's Micro Armor for my posts.

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:07 pm

Chrisswim PM sent. I would love to check your Facebook page, but I am not apart of that.

Panzergator/Cav Dog,

Thanks for your feedback. I will probably paint all future ones in either Solid Desert sand color like those in the gulf or Use the MERDC colors. I am very fond of the MERDC colors over the NATO Tricolor. I did see some Taiwanese ones painted in tri-color, so maybe I will just have a platoon of those. Not apposed to a platoon of national guard holdouts either.

All in all I am doomed to be as accurate as my skills an abilities allow so I will be using the appropriate scheme on the future ones. I just thought that since the Marines used them a little longer than the army, there were a few that made it to the tri-color. Need to do more research before I paint.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:09 pm

I don't think CavDog nor I intended to act as the Camo Polizei. We were just providing some info. In that light, the Marine tanks in Gulf I were A1s with add-on armor. I don't know if they had the modifications our A1s did in '77 - RISE and add-on stabilization, but I assume they did.

While I, too, try to be real-world accurate insofar as my abilities are capable, I am not above inventing some special circumstances to suit my preferences. For instance, although I have almost two battalions of GHQ M60A2s (thanks to CAMA and CHRISSWIM), I intend to modify some of my Brand-X M60A2s with a 120mm gun, and they may get the NATO camo. I would tell you they came from storage, but in reality, after 5 years of service, they were all turned into AVLBs and scrap. And I am not about to add the rear-hull bulge for the closed-breech-scavenger system they all sported to my 1/285 scale A2 hulls. But just looking at them, you will not be able to tell that they all have been up-engined

There are all kinds of theoretical environments to be played in an imaginative world. That's the beauty of these wonderful little models. You can buy enough to do whatever you want with 'em, and create the circumstances necessary to accommodate what you have done..

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:46 pm

Panzergator,

Trust me, I am a camo Poliizei enough for myself. I have been know to buy Imperial Japanese green, from model masters, for my zero's on more than one occasion. LOL with that said, I do enjoy trying to get the colors and patterns close. I do this hobby for the gaming, the collecting and the painting. However, since my group has abandoned 1/285th fir 1/600 scale, less of the gaming. they are suck on playing true scale.

As for going off reality with how you paint vehicles, trust me I have a request from my girlfriend to have a tri-color purple, pink and white scheme for a theoretical brigade she would command... It will be done. LOL

Again, thanks for you input, especially the historical accuracy and time periods from which you guys served. Love to get first hand accounts of how things were. It adds to the hobby. Also thanks for your service.

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:04 pm

Just as a FWIW, all the M60A3s in my US inventory are forest green. No historical significance other than that was how I painted them. My M60A1s are MERDC, sort of. For my first platoon I instituted a 5 color version of it by incorporating 30% earth yellow to 30% green, 30% field drab and about 5% each sand and black. The other platoons are the more traditional 4 color winter temperate scheme.

In my defense, I thought that it was a 5 color scheme although I should have known better because I spent countless hours flying over the motor pools for 2AD & 1st Cav looking at hundreds of armored vehicles in 4 color winter temperate MERDC at Ft Hood in the early 80s. Not being an engineer, I'm OK with it.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:26 pm

Cav Dog,

Sometimes it was only a three-color MERDC pattern. When we transitioned from the USAREUR pattern to MERDC in '77, there wasn't enough of that light tan to put highlights in our hair, so we just had the medium green, brown, and black. That was 3-32 Armor.

In '75, in 1-32 Armor, when we drew M60A2s, there was only black available. Our tanks remained in the issue Olive Green. We started out with white numbers all around, but soon put 'em on in black. Sometime after I left the battalion, the MERDC was applied. Likely the same was true in 1st BDE, so for some time, at least, 3AD wore three different schemes on their tanks - Olive green, USAREUR, and MERDC.

I liked the three-color MERDC. That light tan seemed to stand out too much. Of course, once out of the motor pool, mud or dust soon covered the tanks pretty thoroughly. The dust made it easy to pick them out in a tree line. If we had mist or rain, the moisture darkened our dirt coating to our advantage.

Brutzel · Post by **Brutzel** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:36 pm

It's a german website:
http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/a_rela ... rd_2a5.htm

The colour index:
http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/index.htm

chrisswim · Post by **chrisswim** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:36 pm

Posted on my FB page: Chris's Micro Armor some pics of Leopard 1 A1A1, M60s in 3-tone Camo. Made two posts. Also included Hummers with .50cal, .50 cal buckets, Hummer cammand, hummer GSR, Luch CBR, YPR 765 25 and .50 cal, M113 C&R, Leopard 1 Biber, etc.

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:56 am

Ok, I decided I would post some of my iintial work. I think what is making it hard for me to self evaluate my work, is the gloss coming from the brown. Maybe I should touch it up and hit them with a dull coat. I also included in some of my M60 Desert tanks.

Not the best pictures, but the best I have. Let me know what you think and please send my way any advice and ideas you have. Also, very interested in examples of your work.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:13 am

Hoth_902,

Lookin' GOOD! I like particularly like the three-color M60A3. Even on the real ones, it is hard to avoid some sheen, particularly after it's been in use for a while. Rather than try to eliminate it, just add some dust. If you want them to be motor pool clean, the moisture of a morning in Germany or a rain would add a sheen, so no stress.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:54 pm

Hoth_902

Re suggestions: I recommend a flat medium gray for road wheels. Brand new, they are black, but the rubber on the road wheels bleaches and weathers very quickly to various shades of gray. You did a good job on them, however. Also, most of the water cans on the turret sides were black. There would be an OG strap vertically up the center to hold it in place. In the 70s, we had OG metal cans for both water and other fluids. Water cans were differentiated by a flip-top opening. I think the transition came to the black neoprene (or whatever it was) in the very late '70s-early-'80s. Only the barrel of the M85 .50cal was visible out the front of the cupola. There was a hinged metal plate covering that had to be lifted to load the mg. That plate was the same color as the cupola. The .50 had a neoprene mantlet cover also, which you may choose to depict by painting. It is the same color as the main gun mantlet cover.

The exhaust grills at the stern of the hull were usually stained black (use a dark gray). Go easy on the rust on track. The running gear was dynamic. There was a little rust in various places, but rocks, mud, and motion cleaned the tracks while in motion and unless the tank sat for a long time (read days or weeks) in the motor pool, there wasn't that much rust. If you do a 1/35th scale model, you should use Steel to brush the inside of the road wheels to depict the wear of the track center guides on the steel protective lining necessary for the aluminum road wheels. The inside of the track end connectors (the area between them), as well as the sprocket teeth, were also polished very well by wear and should receive a swish of Steel paint (I use Testor's Model Masters. I used to use Humbrol, too, but I haven't seen it in the local hobby shop in the last 15 years).