6th Panzer Division Organization at Kursk

[pmskaar]

Hey Gang

I am working on doing a couple of companies from the 2nd Battalion, 11th Panzer Regiment at Kursk.

I have the book, III. Pz. Korps at Kursk by Didier Lodieu from Histoire & Collections as a reference.

I am looking at 5th Kompanie and 6th Kompanie in particular right now. These have a mix of tanks in them including Panzer III 50mm and 75mm plus Panzer IVs integrated in there as well.

Example: 5th Kompanie has 4 Panzer III 75mm, 10 Panzer III 5cm, and 6 Panzer IV 75mm.

My question is this: Does anyone here know how the platoons may have been organized and numbered?

This is not your typical late war organization of 3 platoons of 5 tanks each plus 2 HQ vehicles all of the same type such as Panzer IV or Panzer V but of 3 different types.

Originally, I thought that 5th Kompanie might have 4 platoons plus the HQ section and that may be correct but I am not sure. I thought that with 6 Panzer IVs, 2 would be in the HQ element plus the other 4 in 1 platoon with 2 more platoons of Panzer III 5cm and 1 more additional platoon of Panzer III 75mm.

If anyone can tell me or give me a source to go to, that would be very welcome. Otherwise, I will have to wing it.

Thanks.

Pete

[piersyf]

Kursk is an ad-hoc period. The whole organisation of the German army was changed a few months after (11/43). I couldn't find anything specific, but I'd be looking for certain hints:
1) were any vehicles attached for Citadel, and if so, which ones? Mixed vehicles aren't unique (IIRC, 10th SS had a battalion of mixed PzIV and StugIII in June 1944), but they tend to conform to standard organisation. 20 tanks is not normal for the time (17, 19 or 22 being normal), assuming the unit is at list strength.

2) did the unit acquire vehicles off the book? It certainly happened.

3) are the pzIV's short or long barrel? The PzIVF1 was being phased out at Kursk, something like 60 available for 2 army groups. They were being replaced by the PzIIIN (which was itself being relegated to the support role).

so... IF the pzIV's are short barrel types and you add these to the PzIII's, you have 10. The organisation for heavy tank companies at the time was 9 heavies and 10 support tanks, ideally with short 75's, so your company may be a special breakthrough company with 2 PzIV's in HQ, 2 platoons of 4 short 75's for flank or front (infantry and AT) and 2 platoons of PzIII in the centre or behind for anti armour.

If the Pz IV's are long barrel types, then the organisation looks more like a convention medium company (although mixed PzIII and PzIV) with an added platoon of PzIII with short 75's as a support platoon, one PzIV being in HQ.

BTW, you can also get a hint from the other companies, whether they are 'vanilla' or a bit odd in some ways as well.

My interest is late war, but having seen the KstN and the real lists for German units between June and September 1944, the reality is very different from the list.

[pmskaar]

Thanks for that Piersyf. Although it doesn't answer the question about how these platoons are organized and basically numbered, I do appreciate the info.

I have 2 sources I am using so far.

1. Panzer Truppen Volume 2 - Zitadelle. In there it gives the 6th Panzer Division, 11th Regiment, II Battalion as having the following tanks available.

13 Panzer II
34 Panzer III Long
18 Panzer III 75
32 Panzer IV Long
6 PanzerBefelswagen
14 Flammpanzer

Total is 117 tanks of all types. This is in 4 companies plus the HQ. The I Battalion had been sent to refit at this time so was not there for Kursk.

In this book there is no breakdown by what company had what, just total numbers.

2. III. Pz. Korps at Kursk as I mentioned in my earlier post.

Here is the breakdown by company that they present.

5th Kompanie - 4 Pz III 75, 6 Pz IV 75, 10 Pz III 5cm

6th Kompanie - 4 Pz III 75, 7 Pz IV 75, 8 Pz III 5cm*

(*Note these are also listed as 75mm. Probably a Typo.)

7th Kompanie - 4 Pz III 75, 8 Pz IV 75, 7 Pz III 5cm

8th Kompanie - 3 Pz III 75, 8 Pz IV 75, 13 Flammpanzer, 9 Pz III 5cm

HQ Kompanie - 6 Pz II, 7 Pz III 5cm, 8 Pz III 75

Note there is some discrepancy between the total numbers in the 2 books I have mentioned. I am not really worried too much about that as much as I am as to how these platoons were numbered and organized.

There are 13 Flammpanzers listed in the 8th Kompanie in this book. Would they have been 1 really huge 13 vehicle platoon or was this broken down into 2 or 3 smaller platoons as an example.

How would the HQ vehicles be numbered at the Battalion/Regiment for this unit?

Apparently there are no Panzer IVs with the short 75 and no Panzer IIIs with the short 5cm listed for 6th Panzer. Some other divisions still had them but according to Jentz in Panzertruppen the 6th Panzer did not.

I hope I have clarified things a bit. This is by no means a "standard" organization but at Kursk there was no standard organization for the panzer divisions and each one had its own organization.

Any help on this particular organization would be appreciated. Thanks very much.

Pete

[piersyf]

Heya. Been busy. Only thing I've found so far is that the PzIII flamm were organised into platoons of 7 vehicles. I haven't located the KstN for them, but there should be one seeing as 7 was the official number, not just 6th Panzer. It looks like the company was a standard panzer company with 2 extra platoons of flammpanzer added for Kursk.

[pmskaar]

Piersyf

Thanks for the info on tbe Flammpanzers. It appears that these are 2 extra platoons in the 8th Kompanie. Based on the photos in the book, it shows 1 of these marked as 851 which would be the 5th platoon, 1st tank. There are no other pictures to see what were the other numbers.

In the case of the 6th Kompanie, the Co's vehicle is a Panzer IIIL or M probably with the number 601.

If anyone else has any more information on what type tanks were in each platoon in the company and how they were numbered that would be really great. Otherwise I will have to wing it.

Thanks.

Pete

[piersyf]

I found the KstN for the flammpanzer III's it's 1190. Problem is, 1190 is based on the nachrichtenzug organisation (communications), and the flamm version is missing from the NARA records (missing or removed in mid 1944). It appears the 2 platoons for 6th Panzer were meant to be assigned 1 per battalion HQ as part of the Stab. This makes sense, and explains the odd number of tanks; 7 being an unusual number for a German panzer platoon. It basically would have had a 'zug' of 2 tanks and several trucks (signals, fuel for the flame guns, the usual ketten and kubels) and a 'staffel' of 5 tanks. At a guess, I'd say the 6th has decided to just allocate the flammpanzers to a single line company of panzers and absorbed the other vehicles into the battalion. I'd say they'd be happy to pick up an extra radio and phone truck...