Gamer Versus Collector

piersyf · Post by **piersyf** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:49 am

Mostly Wargames Research Group, which gives an idea how long ago it was. Elements of Squad Leader and a set of air rules I can't remember the name of filled in the blanks (especially air support, which was important for both sides in the game). Logistics rules were a simple set up we developed ourselves.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:59 am

A question for gamers... If you don't build at least a passing TOE unit, how do you decide how many vehicles can be used, how do you determine when a unit becomes combat ineffective, how do you decide how many of which vehicles will be played? Nationalities, for instance, have tank platoons of different sizes, usually 3, 4, or 5, depending on nation and era. A unit in action will lose vehicles not only to enemy action but to mechanical breakdown and terrain obstacles, as well. How do you maneuver elements, and keep those together?

Combat orders and plans always have a troop list at the beginning which specifies organization, cross-attachment, etc. What happens in a game? How do you feed in new units and determine the size of those units?

piersyf · Post by **piersyf** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:38 am

That's one reason I prefer TOandE set ups, it's much harder to argue against! I have a battalion force made up of the HQ company of a German armoured recce battalion, a company of half tracks from the same battalion, a company of jagdpanzers from the Panzerjaeger battalion and a company of armoured engineers from the pioneer battalion. An odd mix, but extremely powerful if used well. I have a similar set up with my Americans.

On the other side, my moderns are a rag tag collection of bits. I tried for ages to find a suitable country that they could represent (I'm not really into imaginations) so they have become an OPFOR garage; a mix of Russian, US, English and French vehicles (plus a handful of Unimogs) that enable me to put together effective battalion sized battlegroups from any number of countries. I even have stuff to make classic African mercenary units. Those organisations are up to the player, the limit is on the numbers and types available.

paul · Post by **paul** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:15 pm

Some of the better games I have played have taken into account breakdowns, artillery and air strikes. If the war has been going on for a while no unit will be intact. If it WWIII just started how tanks or APCs broke down on the way to their positions?

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:24 am

Paul, if I am understand your question.....It is possible for a vehicle to break down moving into position or getting ready to go. It's called reliability and maintainability...Though I never served in combat but I have read some things....And I worked in the reliability and maintainability department of an airline....Even new aircraft are not immune to reliability issues right out of the factory....However, with that said, there is probably always a likelyhoid of breakdowns at any point... Reliability is always a factor...Now I concede that it's less likely when a vehicle is new or less used than those in combat for a while, but it happens. This also depends on the complexity of the vehicle...keep in mind the overall vehicle has its reliability number and each component does as well..Aircraft typically leave the factory with a 95 percent dispatch reliability...I am sure military vehicles are the same or close.....Nothing is 100. Over time the number can drop if preventative maintenance is not maintained...

CG2 · Post by **CG2** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:53 am

I wouldn't assume newer vehicles are always more reliable - many new items go into service with undiscovered design faults - LCS for example, UK TUM for another.

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:07 am

Lol...Agreed, I don't assume anything....I had more to add but posting from my cell is difficult... Vehicles rushed into the field strait from production can always have issues that did not play out in testing....Fair point.

paul · Post by **paul** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:47 am

Guys, I'm saying vehicles breakdown. When I was in the Marines our AAV had a leak in it so we could not do water ops but were fine on ground. Later in the Army I had several vehicles that broke down when using them. Any battle you play should take into consideration breakdowns, enemy artillery and air strikes. Few units should be intact after the first day of fighting. Team Yankee even talks about one of tanks having broken down and not ready initially.

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:58 am

Paul,.

Oops, my bad...The last statement or question was confusing to me.....I support Paul.....

CG2 · Post by **CG2** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:33 am

It can make a huge difference to some particular skirmishes too. For example, if you exclude fuel supply and breakdowns, a late WW2 scenario with King Tigers etc is very different from one where you do. Equally, if you exclude medical effects from jungle scenarios or WW1 trenches, the end result is very different and less historically accurate. That said, we all want to run short games sometimes and we've all been guilty of adjusting things in favour of our ** CENSORED ** models on occasion!

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:59 am

Having spent time as an M60A2 platoon leader and TWO YEARS as an M60A1 tank battalion maintenance officer, I can tell you the damned things fall apart while left alone in the motor pool over the weekend. A tank can be fine on Friday afternoon and absolutely dead-lined Monday morning. What's more, even during a two-or 3-week gunnery period or tactical exercise, there will be plenty for maintenance and recovery crews to do. It will be 24/7, rain, shine, sleet, or snow, day and night, for mechanics and recovery crews.

It's much worse in combat.

paul · Post by **paul** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:47 am

I did a large battle a number of years ago where rushed NATO units had to stop a Russian division. Both sides had units coming on the board but most were not intact. This made it challenging for both sides. The NATO side thought about a company but might only get 9 tanks. The Russians might have three companies coming on but it was 23 tanks. Both sides had to make constant adjustments as reduced units made plans a constant headache. These are the same issues that unit commanders must address in real life.

bishnak · Post by **bishnak** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:35 pm

I'm definitely a 'gamer'. I typically buy battalion sized (6-9 packs) or company sized (2-3 packs) units of more common 'combat arms' items. I very rarely buy items that aren't useful on the tabletop in 1:1 gaming. So most artillery, logistics and many support or rare vehicles aren't in my inventory, no matter how nice the models might be.

Quartette · Post by **Quartette** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:49 pm

In Intervention, we use off table artillery, but place the battery models together in the rear as a reminder of what you are working with. You can also asign a 2 inch strip of table behind the deployment zone and designate that the rear.

We also included rules for using supply, medics and engineers in game so the models arent' wasted. Support units are great for generating the 'emergent narratives' that make particular games memorable.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:52 pm

What better way to explain to your friends and children exactly what a tank battalion, artillery battalion, mech battalion, cavalry squadron, etc than to show 'em? My initial purchase of 5 M60A2s and 10 T-62s were purchased to do exactly that....