GHQ Ruleset vs The Other Guy's

[paul]

One aspect of wargaming and actual combat is the unknown. Did I blow-up all of the enemy tanks? When gaming when I do not see anymore tanks still right side up or none without smoke pouring out of them then I know it is time to move forward again. My brother told me in the 1st GW they spent up to an hour blowing the crap out of areas because they did not know when the enemy had been totally wiped out. How do some of you take this into account?

[Mobius]

My brother told me in the 1st GW they spent up to an hour blowing the crap out of areas because they did not know when the enemy had been totally wiped out. How do some of you take this into account?

We have a house rule (as it isn't written anywhere) that a gun has to keep firing at the tank it hit until it catches fire or your tank can spot the crew bailing out. Otherwise keep firing for at least a full turn if its not firing back. Since we have a stun rule it could be stunned or playing possum.

[Vorster]

The remark I made about the South African Armored Corps, which consists of 150 outdate Centurions modified to Isreali Sho't standard, was actually to point out the amazing abilty of modern arms.

Imagine the havoc Wittmann would have caused in Villiers with a M1.

Now I just have one question though. With this high rate of fire, does any rule set track the amount of ammo expended? If one is to build a ROF into the rules ammo does become an issue. To give an example - the G6 gun fires at a rate of 8 rounds of 155mm a minute. At this rate the on board ammo will be expended after 4 minutes, or 4 moves in Battlegroup. (It does make the calculation of the fall of the barrage intersting though. Image what a battery of these monsters would do to a target - 96 47 kg HE rounds impacting within a minute with a CEP of 5 meters. CB is going to be tuff as well with their max range of 75km.)

Totally off topic but as a manner of interst, having worked on barrel cooling systems, how long can the M1 maintain the ROF of 9 rounds a minute?

[jb]

Now I just have one question though. With this high rate of fire, does any rule set track the amount of ammo expended? If one is to build a ROF into the rules ammo does become an issue.
Totally off topic but as a manner of interst, having worked on barrel cooling systems, how long can the M1 maintain the ROF of 9 rounds a minute?

As for ammo rules I used to use small magnets that would be placed on the metal base that the vehicle was mounted on .That doesn't really work to small for bigger fingers,time consumption. I still need a good rule for that. right now the only logical idea is to use a roster,but I really hate paper work. If I had to and I have done it before,is to just generally say a unit is running low if it just got out of an engagement. For instance we had a game one time: the invasion of Wisconsin by Illinois. The Wisconsin army was US and Ill was Russian Equip. anyways the Wi had an arm cavalry troop setup in a defense,9 M1A1s, 13 M3s. These guys shot the hell out of an armoured regiment of T-80s. at the loss of nothing just some minor damage. After the engagement I told the commander(WI ) he was running low on ammo and fuel.
As for gun "cooling" I think the issue here would be cooling the recoil system. Th hydraulic fluid gets hot and expands real fast. I know in the older tanks the loader had to keep a handle (actually a finger) on it. If it expanded too much too fast you either had to stop firing and let it cool or drain some fast. If you drained some and then let it cool you then would have the problem of not enough. Both results being the result of the gun coming out of battery (good thought )

[Vorster]

What ever the cooling, barrel or recoil system, it has a big effect on the amount of rounds that the gun is able to fire. The G6, granted it is howitzer with a very large firing chamber and over pressure for its super long range, can fire 8 rounds a minute for aproxiamately 10 minutes. Then it has to wait for 6 hours plus for the barrel to cool down. In angola in 87/88 the we has a few G5s (towed version of G6) cook of rounds in the barrel due to high barrel temperatures with the result of a gun being written of and a gun crew killed.

Now I know that this would not be a problem with APFSDS rounds, but the HE/HESH rounds could be a problem. Therefore my sceptisicm on the the ROF of 9 rounds a minute is not based on wether it can be done (the LeClerc has a ROF of 12 aimed rounds a minute) but if it can be maintained.

[GMills]

jb has the best solution for wargamers. After a heavy engagement just tell the commander he is low on ammo. Unless one tank is firing most of the shots ammo loss is spread over the company. Tanks can cross-level ammo between them on the battlefield if they need. Keeping track of missile use by vehicles is more important and easier to do.

The cooling is a moot point. Artillery only fires at its max rate when firing Final Protection Fires FPF missions. The sustained rate is the normal rate of fire to prevent just the thing that Vorster was talking about. As for M1A2s they might be capable of firing 9 rounds/minute but that does not mean they DO fire 9 rds/min. There are usually other tanks on the board that keep steady fire on the enemy and destroy the enemy before any other tank has fired more than 4 rounds.

[Mobius]

Now I just have one question though. With this high rate of fire, does any rule set track the amount of ammo expended? If one is to build a ROF into the rules ammo does become an issue. To give an example - the G6 gun fires at a rate of 8 rounds of 155mm a minuteon barrel cooling systems, how long can the M1 maintain the ROF of 9 rounds a minute?

1. In my system there is a gun jam possibility of about 2% (D10 '1' backed by a '1' or '2' when rolling the to-hit die) for most guns every time it fires. This not only reduces players from wasting a lot time on low percent shots but could represent both low ammo and mechanical problems.

2. For Russians the chance of a jam rises to a '1' backed by 1,2 or 3 and with a tank auto loader it is a 1 backed by a 1,2,3 or 4.

3. When a gun jams, you must wait to the end of the turn to roll to clear it. It is a die roll so it may or may not clear... ever during the length of game.

On another point I remember that in the early days of the Iraq invasion a US self-propelled 155mm burned out and several men were casualties. It might have been from ammo cookoff.

[voltigeur]

My brother told me in the 1st GW they spent up to an hour blowing the crap out of areas because they did not know when the enemy had been totally wiped out. How do some of you take this into account?

In my games I'd just sit back and have a beer while you blow the crap out of the table for an hour.

[AllenTC2]

Just to touch on the barrel heat thing....the ammo used in M1A1s and A2s has a mostly combustible case, so having a round go into a really hot breech is a matter for concern. I recall an incident at Ft. Hood where a loader was killed and the rest of the crew injured when just an ember from the previous round landed on the round the loader was (against regs) cradling in his lap.

BOOM.

I would imagine a hot breech could easily do the same thing.

[HMSDiomede]

On another point I remember that in the early days of the Iraq invasion a US self-propelled 155mm burned out and several men were casualties. It might have been from ammo cookoff.

I don't know if it is the incident in question, but at least one combat loaded M109 was lost to fire and explosion after a fire which started in the APU got out of hand. The resulting explosion scattered live 155mm ammunition over a wide area around where the vehicle was parked and required considerable EOD effort to clean up. Word has it the on-board fire-supression system had been disarmed due to accidental discharges, otherwise the fire would have been quickly put out.

David

[GMills]

Hot barrels nothing new, why else did they swab out the barrels of Civil War cannons before loading a new round and powder. BOOM

[jb]

1. In my system there is a gun jam possibility of about 2% (D10 '1' backed by a '1' or '2' when rolling the to-hit die) for most guns every time it fires. This not only reduces players from wasting a lot time on low percent shots but could represent both low ammo and mechanical problems.

2. For Russians the chance of a jam rises to a '1' backed by 1,2 or 3 and with a tank auto loader it is a 1 backed by a 1,2,3 or 4.

3. When a gun jams, you must wait to the end of the turn to roll to clear it. It is a die roll so it may or may not clear... ever during the length of game.

I've just got to say it... Anybody can pile on true statistics,the real skill is which ones to suppress and still have a real feel for the simulation,to include being able to use genuine tactics.
I used to have a game over 30 years ago that would actually let you blow a turret off ,and still drive about . It was a lot of fun but it just didn't work if you wanted to play above a platoon. Even then it was just too many die rolls or flow charts. I'm looking back at that now as experience on things "what not to do" to make a game that will use tactics as "Brain candy" (who said that? ),not looking through charts to see if you can do things like move and shoot. To shorten things like a screwed up gun,maybe that die roll that sucked (while firing)represented that,and the following sucky die roll says you are still jammed. You see its not just rounds that were fired and missed. Missed rounds are as effective as a temporary screwed gun. So why bother? Something to consider for you rules designers. Life is way to short to roll away uselessly...

[Mobius]

To shorten things like a screwed up gun,maybe that die roll that sucked (while firing)represented that,and the following sucky die roll says you are still jammed. You see its not just rounds that were fired and missed. Missed rounds are as effective as a temporary screwed gun. So why bother? Something to consider for you rules designers. Life is way to short to roll away uselessly...

A sucky die roll got you jammed. But it is quite a different thing when it comes to giving away your position if you do fire and miss than if your gun is silent and not able to fire.

Believe me there's a lot more stuff some of the guys wanted to add for just that bit more realism, but the gain was not worth the extra die rolls or table lookups.

I try to look at it somewhat from the point of view of the player is a platoon/company commander. Does the company commander have a clipboard of number of rounds each tank has left at the end of each turn? Clearly they do not. But they might want to know that tank #2 is not firing.

[jb]

To shorten things like a screwed up gun,maybe that die roll that sucked (while firing)represented that,and the following sucky die roll says you are still jammed. You see its not just rounds that were fired and missed. Missed rounds are as effective as a temporary screwed gun. So why bother? Something to consider for you rules designers. Life is way to short to roll away uselessly...

A sucky die roll got you jammed. But it is quite a different thing when it comes to giving away your position if you do fire and miss than if your gun is silent and not able to fire.

Believe me there's a lot more stuff some of the guys wanted to add for just that bit more realism, but the gain was not worth the extra die rolls or table lookups.

I try to look at it somewhat from the point of view of the player is a platoon/company commander. Does the company commander have a clipboard of number of rounds each tank has left at the end of each turn? Clearly they do not. But they might want to know that tank #2 is not firing.

Clearly you miss the point...I've just got to say it... Anybody can pile on true statistics,the real skill is which ones to suppress and still have a real feel for the simulation,to include being able to use genuine tactics.

[Mobius]

Clearly you miss the point...I've just got to say it... Anybody can pile on true statistics,the real skill is which ones to suppress and still have a real feel for the simulation,to include being able to use genuine tactics.

I think the last part is a fallacy. If you mean genuine accepted tactics of the day. If so you will never learn anything new. If you will start with a realistic game system some call a simulation then what works should work in real life. But maybe a different tactic will work better. You can try something new rather be stuck with what is the accepted way of the day.

It we had games that used what the general's thought were genuine accepted tactics in WWI then charging machineguns with waves of men should have been the way to win. But machineguns had those high ROF that come with extra die rolls.

I don't know if any of you have played the 'Chinese farm' scenario of the Arab-Israeli wars but it is an interesting lesson of why the results were what they were. Not as much tactics as you might have thought. Sheer tank and gunnery superiority. Things you find out when the underlying pillars are realistic.

Jb ,you are correct about skill in suppressing superfluous factors. Trying to keep just enough to get the real feel is the ideal. That is why game design is an art rather than a science.