Joint Task Force Pope

[pmskaar]

Very nice, Mike! I really love the Gama Goats. I remember those during my time. It seems to me most of them were "down" most of the time in the units I was with. I also remember running a Battalion Support Platoon in the late 1970s. We had GOERs at the time which were another type of articulated vehicle.
I seem to remember it was hard to keep all of them running as well. "The good ol' days". LOL!

[redleg]

Thanks fellas! I definitely feel like my abilities are improving. I feel like I have graduated from crayons and moved up to magic markers! LOL

[chrisswim]

Yes, Mike. You may also use some colored pencils, too.
The paint, coloration on the GamaGoats looks great. Your design and build on the Military Adm building is awesome. The display, looks great. You do very well!

[redleg]

We don’t have any French units in JTFP (that would make it C/JTFP), but we do work closely with our NATO partners.

So to support my meager French force, I just got a pack of Caesar howitzers (N614). Sadly, there are only 3 guns in the pack, but it is a rather large gun. There are 5 pieces, and I had to do a little research to make sure I put everything in the right place. I’m pretty pleased with it at this point. I’m planning to paint it over the weekend and I’ll post a pic when it’s done.

[panzergator]

If it 's any consolation, the US, Germans, and British, not to mention a number of other armies, are moving to truck chassis for their next - generation SP artillery. Towed and tracked artillery will be discontinued. Rapid displacement required on the current battlefield is generally given as the reason. Caesar, HIMARS, and Archer systems have demonstrated the required performance. Our current tracked systems take at least twice the time to emplace and displace, while towed systems are just killed in place.

The German Boxer chassis will carry the next German 155mm.

[pmskaar]

Very nice, Redleg!

I was also interested in the reasons that armies are going to truck mounted SP artillery vs. towed and tracked artillery. I would have thought the modest protection afforded by the tracked SP guns would be worth something but apparently not.

[panzergator]

Me, too. But they can't hit you if you're already gone. Apparently, this outweighs the advantages of tracked chassis. I wonder why we can't modify our tracked systems to allow the same shoot and scoot capability.

[pmskaar]

Yes, Panzergator, I was also wondering that as well. I have never been an artilleryman except for a 1 day familiarization at ROTC summer camp. That was at Ft. Lewis a long time ago. I admit to being ignorant of emplacement/displacement times for different types of artillery. For that bit of insight, we have our own resident, Redleg.

[redleg]

Paladin has the same shoot and scoot capability. As long as the nav system is up to date, it can stop and shoot without having to lay the battery using traditional methods. Unfortunately it's still a 60 year old system that just has new bells and whistles. We always seem to slow ourselves down with extra safety measures or clearance of fires procedures, but the gun can shoot within a minute of stopping if the correct shell/fuze/propellant is already on the gun. What I really wanted to do as a gun platoon leader was shoot on the move! LOL

I'm interested to know if there is any real difference in battlefield mobility between tracked and wheeled artillery systems. Do Caesar and HIMARS crews ever say "Damn! I wish I could shoot from over there, but I need tracked vehicle to reach that firing point!" I would think a wheeled system would be far easier to maintain, be much cheaper to produce, and have much greater strategic mobility.

[pmskaar]

That is very insightful, Redleg, and those were some of my concerns. Based on the conversation so far, here are my observations.

Tracked advantage: Can go some places that wheels can't go. Better overall protection if under fire.

Wheeled advantage: Cheaper to produce and easier to maintain. That is one big advantage that wheeled vehicles have over tracked vehicles although they typically give up some protection for the crew. Better ability to shoot and scoot. I would be interested to know how much difference there is here, however.

You are right about the M109 series. I believe the M-109 has been around since the early 1960s and even with the many updates, eventually you are looking at a 60 something year old basic design.

[panzergator]

Put those towed M777s on MLRS chassis and move out! Get it in gear.

[Begemot]

I just located this article from 3 April 2024 on the French Caesar wheeled artillery piece and was amazed that it took so long to produce:

Until now, it took 44 months to produce a CAESAR cannon [emphasis added], but with new measures, this period is expected to drop to 18 months. This acceleration is part of an "economy of war" promoted by President Emmanuel Macron, aimed at strengthening support for Ukraine while maintaining France's defense capabilities. ( https://armyrecognition.com/news/army-n ... pabilities.)

Even 18 months seems like a long time to make a unit of artillery, but I don't know anything about modern artillery manufacturing processes. Is 18 months normal?

Slow manufacturing/replacement rates against potential high loss rates in high intensity warfare looks like a problem.


Begemot

[panzergator]

All the West has the same problem. Talking themselves into war without putting in the work to back it up. 18 months for an artillery piece? The US used to turn out LIBERTY SHIPS in a WEEK! Can't do it today, of course. But we need to pick up the pace. The Russians certainly have.

Buy the reload system for the German Panzerhaubitze. Modify it for use with existing M777s. Find an adaptive truck chassis (we have a LOT of trucks to choose from). Add some armor. Get it out there. It doesn't have to be perfect.

Ramp up ammunition production.

Rebuild stored M1s and M2s. Extra M2s with 30mm and 4-man crews as tank wingman, since they appear to be very effective with Ukraine.

Restock Europe so we don't have to get it all across the Atlantic or use flimsy wheeled "armor" for everything.

Bring back REAL armored cavalry regiments. Get DIVISIONS trained up. Review AirLand Battle doctrine and organization.

We need a new tank, A new attack aircraft (Warthog AND Apache).

PREPARE for a general war and MAYBE we won't have to FIGHT one.

If you want peace, prepare for war.

[redleg]

Thanks for sharing that article, Begemot! Yeah that seems like a really long timer to produce a howitzer! That was a great read and I learned something new! I have never heard of an Extended Range Full Bore projectile so I did a little research. All this new technology is making me feel old! LOL

[7.62]

I think there will always be an argument to be made for having both wheeled and tracked artillery systems, if (big if) you can afford them both.
It is a simple fact that tracks can go some places wheeled can not. At the same time, wheeled formations can sometime self deploy in hours over great distances that the heavy formations would need weeks to achieve.
Don't get me going on Western Military Procurement. Having seen it from both sides of the fence it is not good for your blood pressure.
It is like a constant great train robbery set over a much longer time period, not as well planned and involving much more of the public's money.
M777 is a great design, nice and light so you can sling it around under a Chinook (in a training area) and built to a super high standard.
However, how many days can you put 500 rounds down the tube before you run into "issues"? Also that light weight alloy doesn't come cheap you know, how many can you afford?
Counter battery is now for the most part a yesterday problem, the question is can you get your artillery into a usable range location without being seen/sensed. In this area a wheeled platform may have the advantage of being able to move in and out of the likely firing zone quicker.
Panzar, I would take an old 155mm design and double the wall thickness and stick it on a simple 8x8 truck to look like a container, same for the ammo carrier. Build a 1,000 a year for the next 6 years and make sure the factory has a 5x surge capacity.

As for 155mm ammo, heaven help us.
Rant off.