Pete's Place

[recon110]

Pete, great work on the trees, model, and terrain instructions. Scouts Out. This post should cover me for the year lol. On to Waterloo.

[pmskaar]

Thanks very much, Recon 10! I appreciate it.

I am looking forward to seeing more pictures of your Waterloo project.

[Hoth_902]

Pete,

Saw your comments and thanks. I love this forum for the feedback that people give. I currently don't have a hobby group that I interact with as much as I would like and definitely not with the capabilities of people like you and others.

Question for today: Do you feel that there were entire units.. Say at the Company and or Regiment level that was painted in all Dark Yellow? I have not done enough research to really know this 100 percent. From the little reading i have done, I know that replacement vehicles that either came new or used from the factory or transferred from North Africa would have been in Dark Yellow. But do you think whole units would have been dark yellow. I have read people who said that when the German units were advancing through the grass land and fields of the russian planes, Dark Yellow was a good color to blend in.. but again nothing set in stone..

I am just trying to figure out where to turn my efforts next, once I finish the wheels on all my tanks. I have made a conscious decision to paint my 10 PZIVs using the Dark Yellow and red brown camouflage that I have found. Any way, I am an engineer and I some times stress over things too much. Any help from you or anyone else would be appreciated.

[Hoth_902]

After some research, I think I found my answer. I think I found that only replacement vehicles went into the field depending on how urgent they were needed and did not have time to paint ....

[pmskaar]

Hi Hoth!

Yes, I believe your research is correct. You might see the occasional vehicle in overall Dunkelgelb with no additional colors but that was because it was a replacement vehicle and the unit had not had the time (yet) to add the green and brown paint over the Dunkelgelb.

When the Germans switched from Dark Gray aka Panzer Gray officially in February 1943, all vehicles coming out of the factory were to be painted in the new Dunkelgelb color. When the vehicles were shipped to the various units, the unit also received cans of the green and brown paints in order to do the camouflage work.

What is "Official" and what is done are sometimes quite different, especially when it comes to wartime situations. The vehicles were meant to be sprayed with a paint sprayer and the paint thinned with paint thinner. Such was certainly not always the case. In some cases, paint sprayers were not readily available so the unit had to improvise using brushes or even mops or brooms to apply the paint to the vehicles. Sometimes rather than paint thinner, gasoline or diesel was used and sometimes even water.

The paints themselves came in the form of a paste that was supposed to be thinned down for application. If water was used, and it sometimes was, the paint was not as stable after application and would tend to fade quickly or so I have heard somewhere.

The painting itself was typically not done at the Division level or maybe even at Battalion level but often down at the company level. There may have been some basic guidelines as to the patterns to be applied but there were certainly lots of variations. I don't think in 1943 through most of 1944 that any 2 vehicles were painted exactly alike.

I think it was in the Fall of 1944 that some of the tank factories started applying the camouflage to the vehicles at the factory. This created much more standardization in application and pattern. This was the time that the "Ambush Scheme" came into vogue although this was only for about a 2 or 3 month period.

Speaking of the Ambush Scheme, I have not attempted to replicate this on any of my models ... yet. I may try it sometime but it is tricky to pull off, especially in 1/285th scale. Often the contrasting dots look too big. Also keep in mind, it was mostly the Panther, Tiger II, and some of the assault guns and jagdpanzers that received this scheme. I have not really seen evidence of any Tiger Is getting this and not any Panzer IIIs or IVs as well. I am not saying never but if they did, it was rare and in the case of the Tiger I not applied at the factory.

That is what I remember anyway. I hope this explanation is helpful.

[Hoth_902]

Pete,

Super helpful indeed. Might not have been what I wanted, but it definitely was what I needed. I had read some of what you shared, but it was never clear how often and in what numbers, tanks with just Dark Yellow, would appear. I know it did occur and I am sure the number of the dark yellow painted tanks, would increase and decrease based on many factors. My goal is to build units with a smattering of exclusively dark yellow painted, mixed in with standard camo vehicles.. I got carried away, because of how they looked and painted all my Stugs and PZIII F/Gs Dark Yellow. Not a big deal, I can always buy more and smatter in some Camouflaged ones to break it up a little and be closer to reality.. This is all with the understanding that I know I can do what I want and no one will really complain about it. However, with all that said, I am an engineer by trade and it some times comes out in my ** CENSORED ** obsessive compulsive tendencies.. My engineering brain is wired the way its wired and its hard to over ride...

[Tanker Mike]

I think it was in the Fall of 1944 that some of the tank factories started applying the camouflage to the vehicles at the factory. This created much more standardization in application and pattern. This was the time that the "Ambush Scheme" came into vogue although this was only for about a 2 or 3 month period.

The factory standardized camouflage patterns were officially introduced on August 19, 1944. The first pattern was the "Ambush" pattern.

The book Panther, External Appearances & Design Changes by Roddy MacDougall & Martin Block is a must have for any Panther enthusiast. While the book is an excellent study of the Panther throughout the war, it does a deep dive into the factory applied camo patterns.

Mike

[pmskaar]

Hi Hoth

I am happy to provide what information I am able. I know the plain Dark Yellow aka Dunkelgelb, is easier to do and I understand the trepidation of doing the 2 and 3 color scheme. Now that I have done a fair number of German vehicles for myself and GHQ I do not feel the trepidation that I had when I first started.

By the way, I have never done any of my British vehicles in the North Africa Caunter scheme from 1940-41. That is hard to pull off in 1/285th scale as you have 3 colors also but applied in a pretty generally similar pattern but with straight lines. I may try it one of these days on a couple vehicles just to see if I could pull it off.

Hi Tanker Mike

Thanks for the correct info on the Factory applied camouflage and the Ambush scheme. I knew it was somewhere around that time but could not remember exactly. I recall that the Ambush scheme did have variations in application with dots, "triangles", and what I call "butterflys" depending on which factory was doing it. I remember seeing this a while back I think on the Battlefront site.

[Hoth_902]

Pete,

I am really weird in that I will stress about painting stuff and it will sit for what seems an eternity.. Then I will go paint it and it does not turnout as bad as I thought it would... Then scratch my head as to why I waited.. LOL... I am a hot mess at times. The funnier part is that I have learned how to do an effective stripping of pieces, so if I mess up too bad, I can start over.

I like how the Dunkelgelb and Dunkelbraun camo scheme came out. I have 10 total PZIVs to paint and I think 7 of them will be in the scheme and the three remaining will be replacements that are just Dunkelbraun and Dunkelgleb camo.

As for the British desert Scheme... I have looked at that as well and don't even want to think about how to do that.. LOL. Can't wait to see when you try it, though.

Tanker Mike,

Thanks for the book suggestion. I have more than a few Panthers to paint. I might have to purchase that in the future. Most of my stuff is 1943ish at the moment, accept for a platoon of King Tigers... I am sure that will change here soon. Maybe as early as Black Friday. LOL.

[pmskaar]

Hi Hoth

I totally understand about having the reluctance to get started on a project or the next step of an ongoing project. I have even come up with my own name for this phenomenon - "Pete's wall of Perfection". I want it to come out perfect which keeps me from even starting it until the stars all align or something. Once I do start, I realize - that wasn't so bad, was it? Sometimes you just have to work through it. I do get it though.

[pmskaar]

Here are a few pictures of my Panzer IIIs I just finished. These are for my 3rd Company and are Panzer IIIJs. There are 2 with the shorter 50mm gun barrels and 2 with the longer barrel. The shorter ones were done by carefully trimming the barrels down from the longer ones to the proper length.

[Hoth_902]

I like it Pete. Just a small modification to your phrase so that it can be used by all. "The wall of Perfection". My Wall of perfection is pretty high... I would say far higher than my talents, but that is not to say I have no talent or low Talent. Looking at your latest batch, which are beautiful, I realize that much like Icarus, I might be flying too close to the sun. I try to paint all the little odd bits that is molded on it. Such as the polls and rods, little tools and hardware... and maybe less is more. I see that you did not paint all the tools and the biggest part is a good wash after the major bits.. Well done.

By the way, what size numbers did you use on the side?. I am guessing they are from FLD, good guess? Also, just to confirm, you cut the individual numbers from a grouping of three, right? Another question, are all the tanks painted the same color Dunkelgraun? or are some dunkelgraun and some a beige or something? Might be more light trickery.

Keep posting picture of you work.. Very inspirational. Wish More people would post, like it use to be.

[pmskaar]

Thanks very much, Hoth!

Colors. My tanks are painted in my version of RAL 8000 and RAL 8020. RAL 8000 is the darker color and was used by the Afrika Korps from sometime in 1941 until (Officially) March 25th, 1942. The lighter color, RAL 8020 became the official color in March 1942 but I am pretty sure that did not result in an immediate transition to the new color.

I painted my long barreled Panzer IIIJs and also the Ls that I also have in RAL 8020. This is because they really didn't arrive until after the transition date and may have arrived already painted in the desert color. I have heard this anyway. The short barreled Panzer IIIJs are painted in RAL 8000 which is the darker color.

I do not know for sure if old tanks and other vehicles in the Afrika Korps were painted in the new color or more probably left in their original darker shade. I am also not completely sure of the effects of sun bleaching on the original paint along with dust etc so that it may not have been easy to see a big difference.

I have chosen to paint my earlier vehicles in the RAL 8000 and the newer arrivals for 1942 in the RAL 8020. It gives the group a more eclectic look to it.

For my RAL 8000, I use Humbrol #93 Desert Yellow which is a reasonable if not an exact match to RAL 8000. Model Master had the exact color but I did not like the paint properties so did not use it. Model Master also had the later RAL 8020 which is way more beige. For mine, I mix #94 Brown Yellow with #61 Flesh at the ratio of 3:1 of yellow to flesh. I then add #34 Matte White to lighten it a bit more. This is based on a Mike Starmer formula I have from years ago.

Tools. I do try to paint all the tools. I might have missed one of the on the Panzer IIIs which may be a crowbar or track tensioner. I am not sure exactly. I did paint the shovel, the wire cutters and ax, plus the crank for the engine which are on the tank. I admit there are sometimes I wonder why I do what I do.

Decals. For these tanks, I used the red numbers from the half-track tactical numbers set and just cut out the single digits that I needed. I thought the Panther numbers might be a tad large. This has been a long work in progress as I started this Afrika Korps project over 30 years ago. My original decals were the GHQ red German tactical numbers. This was in the day that they were traditional decals and not computer printed which I did not care for. I still have a sheet of the original GHQ decals but they are very old and brittle and typically break apart when I try to apply them. I have not seen new solid red numbers from I-94 yet so used the Flight Deck Decals ones.

[redleg]

Those look fantastic Pete!

[pmskaar]

Thank you very much, Redleg! I appreciate it.